Waterloo gateline
 

The gateline at Waterloo mainline seems to be finished apart from a
few ceiling tiles and and some fencing.

The gates have now been switched on,but are not in use yet.
The ticket machines have been fitted with a black rectangular pad
which I think is a smartcard reader.

The peak hour subway has now been closed until 'further notice' for
installation of the gateline there.

Waterloo gateline
 

"Matthew Dickinson" wrote in message
...
The gateline at Waterloo mainline seems to be finished apart from a
few ceiling tiles and and some fencing.

The gates have now been switched on,but are not in use yet.
The ticket machines have been fitted with a black rectangular pad
which I think is a smartcard reader.

The peak hour subway has now been closed until 'further notice' for
installation of the gateline there.

I had to use the gate on Platform 19 on Thursday!

MaxB

Waterloo gateline
 

On Dec 12, 11:03*pm, "Batman55" wrote:
"Matthew Dickinson" wrote in message

...

The gateline at Waterloo mainline seems to be finished apart from a
few ceiling tiles and and some fencing.

The gates have now been switched on,but are not in use yet.
The ticket machines have been fitted with a black rectangular pad
which I think is a smartcard reader.

The peak hour subway has now been closed until 'further notice' for
installation of the gateline there.

I had to use the gate on Platform 19 on Thursday!

MaxB

I had to use Platform 18/19 gates last week - believe they were
activated early that week.

The Platform 20 signage is also now in place - any ideas when the
platform will be in use?

Waterloo gateline
 

wrote

On Dec 12, 11:03*pm, "Batman55" wrote:

I had to use the gate on Platform 19 on Thursday!

I had to use Platform 18/19 gates last week - believe they were
activated early that week.

I used them about 1300 on Wednesday (10th Dec '08) and judging by the
number of 'helpful' staff they had just been switched on.

Congratulations, BTW, to the ticket staff at Richmond who asked whether
I had a Freedom pass before letting me buy a ODTC with Senior Railcard.

Is there such a thing as a Off-peak Single ? I noticed that the
boundary zone 6 extension was an Anytime Single which seems strange
given the ODTC itself was Off-peak

--
Mike D

Waterloo gateline
 

It is switched on and it still seems to be causing quite a few
problems. I may be wrong here but are the gates working in both
directions at the same time? That's what it looked like the last few
days to me. They really need to make sure that people from 17/18 exit
via platform 19 as we almost didn't make our trains due to the high
number of people trying to get off via the small number of gates at
17/18.

Waterloo gateline
 

In article 51cff96c-24a0-4cc1-b500-09d23f112817
@q36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, says...
It is switched on and it still seems to be causing quite a few
problems. I may be wrong here but are the gates working in both
directions at the same time? That's what it looked like the last few
days to me. They really need to make sure that people from 17/18 exit
via platform 19 as we almost didn't make our trains due to the high
number of people trying to get off via the small number of gates at
17/18.

There is an article in the current SWT e-Motion magazine which suggests
that the gates aren't bi-directional:

"Controllers will switch the direction of the gates to make more
available for passengers coming into or out of the station, depending on
the time of day. ?In the morning rush, when we have more than 40,000
people leaving the station in one hour, most gates will be in exit
mode,? says Peter Hurst. ?The new gate line should smooth the passenger
flow, especially at peak times.?

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWT...Story/_Issue28
_InsideStory_pg2.htm

I expect that the automatic wide gates will be bi-directional though
based on other stations.

Duncan

Waterloo gateline
 

In message 01c95cc0$991a8ca0$LocalHost@default, at 01:21:36 on Sat, 13
Dec 2008, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

Is there such a thing as a Off-peak Single ?

Depends on the route. I've found them to be less prevalent near London.

There isn't for Richmond to London.
--
Roland Perry

Waterloo gateline
 

wrote in message
...
On Dec 12, 11:03 pm, "Batman55" wrote:
"Matthew Dickinson" wrote in message

...

The gateline at Waterloo mainline seems to be finished apart from a
few ceiling tiles and and some fencing.

The gates have now been switched on,but are not in use yet.
The ticket machines have been fitted with a black rectangular pad
which I think is a smartcard reader.

The peak hour subway has now been closed until 'further notice' for
installation of the gateline there.

I had to use the gate on Platform 19 on Thursday!

MaxB

I had to use Platform 18/19 gates last week - believe they were
activated early that week.

The Platform 20 signage is also now in place - any ideas when the
platform will be in use?


When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

Waterloo gateline
 

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:39:58 -0000, wrote:

[waterloo]

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops. I'd also say with confidence that it is impossible
to gate Waterloo W&C safely anyway.
--
Paul C

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 12:20, Paul Corfield wrote:
You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops. *

There's ungated access to all other lines, or is that not a worry?

U

Waterloo gateline
 

In article ,
Matthew Dickinson wrote:
The gateline at Waterloo mainline seems to be finished apart from a
few ceiling tiles and and some fencing.

As long as I pass through Waterloo gateline, I am in paradise.

Waterloo gateline
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:39:58 -0000, wrote:

[waterloo]

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.

So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 11:15, Roland Perry wrote:

In message 01c95cc0$991a8ca0$LocalHost@default, at 01:21:36 on Sat, 13
Dec 2008, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

Is there such a thing as a Off-peak Single ?

Depends on the route. I've found them to be less prevalent near London.

There isn't for Richmond to London.

That's a fare that falls within the London zonal fares regime - since
January 2007 all National Rail fares in the London zones, regardless
of TOC, are priced set according to a zonal fare scale (though still
issued on a point-to-point basis).

The only tickets available for such journeys are Anytime Singles,
Anytime Day Returns and Off-Peak Returns (aka CDRs) - plus of course
Travelcards and Oyster PAYG on a limited number of routes (and indeed
LU fares on a few routes that have interavailable ticketing).

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 13:52, wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:39:58 -0000, wrote:

[waterloo]

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.

So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.

The point Mr Thant is making is that in a sense Waterloo W&C line
offers ungated access to the LU network. As a response I'd say that
it's pretty much impossible to enclose the LU network in a
hermetically sealed bubble.

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 08:38, sweek wrote:
It is switched on and it still seems to be causing quite a few
problems. I may be wrong here but are the gates working in both
directions at the same time? That's what it looked like the last few
days to me. They really need to make sure that people from 17/18 exit
via platform 19 as we almost didn't make our trains due to the high
number of people trying to get off via the small number of gates at
17/18.

No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time! Instead gates can simply be
switched from one direction to the other as required by traffic flow.

Waterloo gateline
 

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:52:33 -0000, wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:39:58 -0000, wrote:

[waterloo]

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.

So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.

There is no practical or safe way of gating Waterloo W&C. The long
gallery is too narrow and to place them at the ends of the ramps /
stairs would offer too little space. Also it is madness to place gates
at the tops of stairs or ramps with no reservoir or run off area. The
same argument applies to the exits at Waterloo - gates would be placed
in corridors or very busy circulating areas. I understand there are
huge queues at Waterloo for the W&C in the peaks and that these extend
right up the stairs and ramps - another factor making gating unsafe and
impractical. There is no point in sacrificing common sense just to
stick gates in and I say that as an advocate of them!

I wasn't aware that the DLR corridor gateline had gone at Bank as it's
yonks since I have been there. However the LU system is not fully gated
and never, ever will be in my view. There are too many places where
cross platform interchange exists and where it is completely impossible
to gate that there is always a risk of "leakage".

This is why LU uses validators for such locations where there is a
boundary between fare systems - I devised the concept of the Prestige
validator and wrote it into the specification. At that time I was not
aware that it would become quite so well used at places like DLR and
Tramlink and NR locations but generally it works. I'd prefer there to
be more publicity to aid passengers using them so the circumstances in
which you touch or not were clearer.
--
Paul C

Waterloo gateline
 

In message
, at
06:07:10 on Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Mizter T remarked:
No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time!

The 30p turnstiles at station toilets.
--
Roland Perry

Waterloo gateline
 

"Mizter T" wrote ...
You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.
So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.
The point Mr Thant is making is that in a sense Waterloo W&C line
offers ungated access to the LU network. As a response I'd say that
it's pretty much impossible to enclose the LU network in a
hermetically sealed bubble.

You can enter via the Finsbury Park - Moorgate link, too, and I'm sure there
are others. But so long as one end or the other is gated, 99.9% of journeys
will be monitored at some point.

Plus it's only a question of time before DLR is under pressure to improve
security, especially once the six-car trains get moving.
--

Andrew

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 14:46, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote ...

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.
So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.
The point Mr Thant is making is that in a sense Waterloo W&C line
offers ungated access to the LU network. As a response I'd say that
it's pretty much impossible to enclose the LU network in a
hermetically sealed bubble.

You can enter via the Finsbury Park - Moorgate link, too, and I'm sure there
are others. But so long as one end or the other is gated, 99.9% of journeys
will be monitored at some point.

There are many others but I'm not going to start making a list of
them! Agree in essence about the point re one or other end of the
journey being gated, but of course there are numerous journeys where
neither end is gated - again I've no intention of making a list of
them! As Paul C says downthread, the system is permeable and this will
always be the case - gates help but they are not a solution to fare
evasion in and of themselves.


Plus it's only a question of time before DLR is under pressure to improve
security, especially once the six-car trains get moving.


By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

Waterloo gateline
 

In message of Sat, 13 Dec
2008 14:10:03 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes

[snip]

in corridors or very busy circulating areas. I understand there are
huge queues at Waterloo for the W&C in the peaks and that these extend
right up the stairs and ramps - another factor making gating unsafe and
impractical. There is no point in sacrificing common sense just to
stick gates in and I say that as an advocate of them!

[snip]

I gave up an attempt to use the W&C from Waterloo at about 0830. The
crowd extended to the chocolate shop. I was surprised more people did
not divert. I did not have time to see how long the delay was. BTW, why
do trains to Bank wait outside the station rather than on the platform?
This is particularly noticeable and irritating off-peak.
--
Walter Briscoe

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 14:39, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
06:07:10 on Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Mizter T remarked:

No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time!

The 30p turnstiles at station toilets.


Good point! I have almost walked into people using these - or more to
the point they've almost walked into me in a distracted fashion whilst
they were on their way out.

I must say that I'm a fan (if that's not too odd a thing to say!) of
the facilities at St. Pancras - very clean and free to use. I suppose
my usage of them is being subsidised by frequent Eurostar and EMT
travellers (such as yourself), stations shoppers and Champagne
quaffers - so thanks!

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 14:10, Paul Corfield wrote:

[Ungated Waterloo W&C platforms]

There is no practical or safe way of gating Waterloo W&C. *The long
gallery is too narrow and to place them at the ends of the ramps /
stairs would offer too little space. Also it is madness to place gates
at the tops of stairs or ramps with no reservoir or run off area. *The
same argument applies to the exits at Waterloo - gates would be placed
in corridors or very busy circulating areas. *I understand there are
huge queues at Waterloo for the W&C in the peaks and that these extend
right up the stairs and ramps - another factor making gating unsafe and
impractical. * There is no point in sacrificing common sense just to
stick gates in and I say that as an advocate of them!


In this context 'safety first' makes absolute sense.

Re the W&C overcrowding - I finally managed to pursuade someone I know
who works on Queen Vic Street in the City that instead of bitching
about the packed W&C line it would just be easier and more relaxing if
they just walked, and now she's full of the joys of the non-wobbly
Millenium Bridge, the Tate Modern and the pubs in the backstreets of
Waterloo!


I wasn't aware that the DLR corridor gateline had gone at Bank as it's
yonks since I have been there. However the LU system is not fully gated
and never, ever will be in my view. There are too many places where
cross platform interchange exists and where it is completely impossible
to gate that there is always a risk of "leakage". *


I think I'm right in saying that in days of yore the W&C platforms at
Bank were ungated - that's when there were gates along the passageway
to the DLR and the rest of the station (i.e. the passageway with the
tunneling shield embedded in it). Then a few years ago the W&C
platforms were gated, thus bringing them inside the 'fare-paid zone'
of the rest of the station - hence the gates in the aforementioned
passageway were removed (though you can still see the marks on the
floor and at least until fairly recently there was an empty glass-
fronted control cabinet for the gates still in place).


This is why LU uses validators for such locations where there is a
boundary between fare systems - I devised the concept of the Prestige
validator and wrote it into the specification. *At that time I was not
aware that it would become quite so well used at places like DLR and
Tramlink and NR locations but generally it works. *I'd prefer there to
be more publicity to aid passengers using them so the circumstances in
which you touch or not were clearer.


Aha, so you're behind the standalone validators then - I was under the
impression that Kulveer dreamt up the whole Prestige system himself...
I jest, I jest!

Interesting that you didn't think they would be so widespread - what
was the thinking about the DLR and Prestige then, were you expecting
DLR not to participate in PAYG? And did you and the team think
National Rail stations would mostly be gated, or had you given up in
exasperation of any idea that the railways might join in too?

Waterloo gateline
 

Mizter T wrote:

No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time! Instead gates can simply be
switched from one direction to the other as required by traffic flow.

Well lets hope the staff at Waterloo are more savy than those at Liverpool
Street. The high number platforms' gateline is frequently set too heavily in
the wrong direction for the peak flow, and has in and outs scattered across.

Waterloo gateline
 

Waterloo gateline
 

Mizter T wrote:

By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

Waterloo gateline
 

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:56:33 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

wrote:

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.

So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.

Anyone remember when there was a gateline in the passageway, even though it
was years after London Underground had taken control of the line?

I wonder why they didn't retain that gateline as an internal barrier (as
with the Jubilee at Stratford). Of course it would mean another station that
you'd need a huge book to understand how to use Oyster with!

You have answered your own question. The old DLR gateline was set to be
an OSI to get from the "closed" part of Bank to the "open" W&C.
Nonetheless LU struggled to put staff at that gateline when LU did not
have responsibility for the W&C. It was therefore a low priority and
often left open IME.

Over the years pressure grew to control fraud on the W&C once it was in
LU control. In theory you could have retained the DLR gateline and put
the new W&C one in but it would mean two sets of gates within
centimetres of each other. Although I was not involved in the actual
implementation of the W&C gates I would guess the argument was that it
was more sensible to put the DLR corridor within the paid area
controlled by the W&C gateline.

The Stratford JLE gateline is always for interchange and affords no
direct exit to the street at all and thus does not have the
complications of Bank to factor in.

--
Paul C

Waterloo gateline
 

Walter Briscoe wrote:

I gave up an attempt to use the W&C from Waterloo at about 0830. The crowd
extended to the chocolate shop. I was surprised more people did not
divert. I did not have time to see how long the delay was. BTW, why do
trains to Bank wait outside the station rather than on the platform? This
is particularly noticeable and irritating off-peak.

It's been ten years since I used it for my morning school commute at about
that time, but in general I found that the crowd does move quite a bit once
a train arrives. The regulars soon work out how to work the crowd and get a
train quickly.

Waterloo gateline
 

Mizter T wrote:

No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time! Instead gates can simply be
switched from one direction to the other as required by traffic flow.

The Cubic *wide* gates have "Full-Wide", "Half-Wide" and "First Come,
First Served" settings.

The latter has the gate in the fully closed position by default (as
opposed to entry or exit), and will open in the appropriate direction
when a valid ticket or Oyster is presented.

Cheers,

Barry

Waterloo gateline
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

Over the years pressure grew to control fraud on the W&C once it was in
LU control. In theory you could have retained the DLR gateline and put
the new W&C one in but it would mean two sets of gates within
centimetres of each other. Although I was not involved in the actual
implementation of the W&C gates I would guess the argument was that it
was more sensible to put the DLR corridor within the paid area
controlled by the W&C gateline.

I'm a little confused as I thought the DLR corridor was always part of the
paid area. (Is it the passageway ending at that old gateline or am I
thinking of something else?)

The Stratford JLE gateline is always for interchange and affords no
direct exit to the street at all and thus does not have the
complications of Bank to factor in.

Yes but try explaining to anyone how all the various interchange
combinations must be done on Oyster! ;-)

Waterloo gateline
 

--
Mike D

Mizter T wrote

On 13 Dec, 11:15, Roland Perry wrote:

Dec 2008, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

Is there such a thing as a Off-peak Single ?

Depends on the route. I've found them to be less prevalent near
London.

There isn't for Richmond to London.

That's a fare that falls within the London zonal fares regime -
since
January 2007 all National Rail fares in the London zones, regardless
of TOC, are priced set according to a zonal fare scale (though still
issued on a point-to-point basis).

The only tickets available for such journeys are Anytime Singles,
Anytime Day Returns and Off-Peak Returns (aka CDRs) - plus of course
[...]

Thanks but I said " Off-peak Single ? I noticed that the boundary zone
6 extension was an Anytime Single which seems strange given the ODTC
itself was Off-peak"

So the ticket was boundary zone 6 to, in fact, Walton-on-Thames, by
definition wholly outside the zones.

--
Mike D

Waterloo gateline
 

Mizter T wrote:

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Well I think that makes it a problem if the conscientious visitor (or for
that matter someone such as myself when arriving on mainline on a paper
ticket and transferring to Oyster there) can't easily comprehend it so that
they can have confidence they've used it properly.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

Ah. I'm also thinking of exiting the station - as well as the double
barriers to get out of the Jubilee line there are also platform readers with
signs that imply that all PAYG (or any Oyster) users must touch on them.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

So do they allow one to actually finish a PAYG journey? Supposing one is
travelling from Bow Church to Forest Gate, starting on Oyster but switching
over to a paper ticket for the last stretch of the journey - will a platform
reader end the Oyster section?

And for that matter do the Jubilee barriers work to both interchange Canning
Town to Leyton and finish the Oyster section of Canning Town to non-Oyster,
or does the latter require touching out on the platform barriers as well?

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

So instead it encourages people to get confused and make mistakes because
they don't know and can't find out how to do it correctly?

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 18:26, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Mizter T wrote

On 13 Dec, 11:15, Roland Perry wrote:

Dec 2008, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

Is there such a thing as a Off-peak Single ?

Depends on the route. I've found them to be less prevalent
near London.

There isn't for Richmond to London.

That's a fare that falls within the London zonal fares regime *-
since January 2007 all National Rail fares in the London zones,
regardless of TOC, are priced set according to a zonal fare scale
(though still issued on a point-to-point basis).

The only tickets available for such journeys are Anytime Singles,
Anytime Day Returns and Off-Peak Returns (aka CDRs) - plus of course

[...]

Thanks but I said " Off-peak Single ?

That was the point I was trying to make - within the London zones
there is no such thing as an Off-peak Single. Also, as Roland Perry
states elsewhere the Off-peak Single is a rare fare near London -
indeed I'd say it's a rare fare for journeys wholly within the south
east (i.e. the old Network South East area).

I noticed that the boundary zone 6 extension was an Anytime Single which
seems strange given the ODTC itself was Off-peak

I grant you that that might seem counter-intuitive, but as there
aren't any Off-peak Single fares for such journeys then it's not
possible for you to be issued with one! *If* you were making a return
journey then you would have been issued with an Off-Peak Day return.


So the ticket was boundary zone 6 to, in fact, Walton-on-Thames, by
definition wholly outside the zones.


OK, understood - but the same situation applies w.r.t. fares for this
journey, i.e. the only available fares are Anytime Single, Anytime Day
Return and Off-Peak Day Return, there is no Off-Peak Single fare.

Waterloo gateline
 

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

Much as I admire your knowledgeable and good-tempered contributions,
that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Keeping the rules a secret in order to increase compliance with the
rules? I hardly think so, although it might catch more people out, if
that's the intention.

Waterloo gateline
 

In article
,
Mizter T wrote:

No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time! Instead gates can simply be
switched from one direction to the other as required by traffic flow.

IIRC, the gates installed by Northern Rail at Manchester Oxford Road are
bi-directional.

Waterloo gateline
 

"Mizter T" wrote ...
Plus it's only a question of time before DLR is under pressure to improve
security, especially once the six-car trains get moving.
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

In the early days (2 car trains), I rarely travelled without the 'nondriver'
inspecting my ticket; this pretty much died out when they went 4-car.
--

Andrew

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 18:26, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Well I think that makes it a problem if the conscientious visitor (or for
that matter someone such as myself when arriving on mainline on a paper
ticket and transferring to Oyster there) can't easily comprehend it so that
they can have confidence they've used it properly.


I didn't really phrase what I said earlier very well - I think in
essence I agree with you, in that there isn't any guidance offered for
those who might seek it. My basic point was that in these situations
the system is flexible and can handle extra, unnecessary validations.

For someone arriving on a paper ticket then they obviously need to
touch-in if they are to be using PAYG for the rest of their journey -
either on the standalone validators on the Central Line platforms, or
in the passageway to the DLR platforms, or by the NLL platforms, or
through the unusual 'internal' gates in front of the Jubilee line
platforms - and vice-versa to end a PAYG journey and move over on to a
paper ticket.

I think however I get where you're coming from - you're wondering
whether you should be touching-in when you alight from your Shenfield
line suburban train whereupon you are immediately presented with
Oyster validators on the island platform that is shared with the
Central Line. I must admit I have never tested out this scenario but
I'm almost certain that touching-in here and then again at either the
Jubilee line gates or the DLR or NLL validators wouldn't be a problem
at all (I suppose it's possible the validators at the entrance to the
DLR might present an error message given that you had touched-in
already, but as they are configured as interchange validators I reckon
that wouldn't happen).

Do bear in mind that on arrival at Stratford you don't need to
immediately 'legitimise' youself by touching-in - you are already
legit because you've got a paper rail ticket.


In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

Ah. I'm also thinking of exiting the station - as well as the double
barriers to get out of the Jubilee line there are also platform readers with
signs that imply that all PAYG (or any Oyster) users must touch on them.


Again I reckon there wouldn't be a problem even if you exited the
Jubilee gates, went round the station and touched on the NLL, DLR and
Central line validators and then left the station through the main
gates - you'd be bonkers to do so but I doubt it'd be an issue for
Oyster. In fact I'll do just that sometime and see what happens!


(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

So do they allow one to actually finish a PAYG journey? Supposing one is
travelling from Bow Church to Forest Gate, starting on Oyster but switching
over to a paper ticket for the last stretch of the journey - will a platform
reader end the Oyster section?


Yes it will. I'll stop pussyfooting around so much and expand on this.
I don't know the official terminology but touching on interchange
validators is in effect treated as a 'soft exit' from the PAYG system
- in other words it means that the passenger might be doing one of two
things, either
(a) finishing their PAYG journey and presumably continuing using
another paper ticket, or
(b) touching-in midway through their journey at the point of
interchange, and they will touch out later when they exit the system
at their destination.

In other words it is ambiguous, because the system cannot know what a
passenger intends to do. In any case if a passenger is inspected later
then their Oyster card will be legitimately validated (within the time
limit at least).

I'm not going to spell it out, but you can see how this could be
abused by someone who wanted to sidestep paying the whole fare due.


And for that matter do the Jubilee barriers work to both interchange Canning
Town to Leyton and finish the Oyster section of Canning Town to non-Oyster,
or does the latter require touching out on the platform barriers as well?


Again the unusual Jubilee line gates have the exact same 'interchange'
attributes as the interchange validators, because a passenger might
fall into either scenario (a) or scenario (b) which I outlined above.


Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

So instead it encourages people to get confused and make mistakes because
they don't know and can't find out how to do it correctly?


I suppose the point is that they can't make a mistake even if they are
'Oyster touch-happy' - i.e. the system is tolerant of people touching-
in several times. My hypothesis is that the way the system works is
not explained for fear that people will figure out how to scam it. As
more ungated National Rail stations enter the fray as more routes
accept PAYG, this issue only increases.

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 18:44, MIG wrote:

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

Much as I admire your knowledgeable and good-tempered contributions,
that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Keeping the rules a secret in order to increase compliance with the
rules? *I hardly think so, although it might catch more people out, if
that's the intention.


Ha! Put like that it does sound nonsensical, but that's not quite what
I was getting at - allow me to elaborate...

If you take a look at my extensive reply to Tim on this overall issue
upthread, you'll find that I expand on this. Do note that I don't work
for TfL or anyone else involved - all I was doing was hypothesising on
reasons why TfL might not provide specific guidance for such
scenarios, which in essence boils down to...
(a) the fact that it's not possible to muck it up - a passenger can
touch on as many interchange validators as they want without it
causing an issue, and
(b) the possibility that publicly laying out exactly how the system is
configured will make it easier for people to figure out how to 'work
the system'.

In other words there aren't really any complicated rules, all one is
basically required to is to least touche-in or out at the start or end
of one's PAYG journey - at a gated interchange point like this a
passenger changing lines can touch-in at as many interchange
validators as they want and it won't make a blind bit of difference.

That said I'll certainly grant you that official guidance is a bit
vague at best when it comes to the issue of combining a Travelcard on
Oyster with PAYG to extend the journey 'out-of-zone' - though
passengers using this facility would indeed do well to touch-in on any
interchange validators they might come across on their journey.

However when PAYG becomes widespread on National Rail there could well
be an issue is passengers are changing trains at an ungated station
and decide to go to the station exit to touch-in on a standalone
validator - if that validator has been configured merely to deal with
entrances and exits then people trying to use it as an interchange
validator will mess things up on their card (and yes I do realise that
in such a scenario said passengers would only be doing what they
thought was best). There are two solutions to this...
(a) gate the station, and
(b) configure any validators at such stations as interchange
validators, just to be on the safe side.

I dare say that many stations used where this might occur (i.e. those
commonly used for interchange between lines and services) are either
already gated or will be gated soon.

Anyway I suspect you'll still think I'm a fruitcake regardless!

Waterloo gateline
 

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, MIG wrote:

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be provided
- I suspect the basic problem with providing this information is that
it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes that are
inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted at in the
past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid it out in a
straightforward manner. In other words spelling out exactly how they
work will assist people to abuse the system.

Much as I admire your knowledgeable and good-tempered contributions,
that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Keeping the rules a secret in order to increase compliance with the
rules?

Mizter T is a former home secretary, AICMFP.

tom

--
For me, thats just logic. OTOH, Spock went bananas several times using
logic. -- Pete, mfw

Waterloo gateline
 

On 13 Dec, 22:02, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, MIG wrote:

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be provided
- I suspect the basic problem with providing this information is that
it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes that are
inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted at in the
past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid it out in a
straightforward manner. In other words spelling out exactly how they
work will assist people to abuse the system.

Much as I admire your knowledgeable and good-tempered contributions,
that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Keeping the rules a secret in order to increase compliance with the
rules?

Mizter T is a former home secretary, AICMFP.

tom


You'll end up in Guantanamo for reason redacted if you're not
careful sonny!