| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
Coffee & ITSO
You can now buy coffee in London with an ITSO compatible card.
see http://www.squidcard.com/coffeerepublic.html This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard. |
Coffee & ITSO
On Dec 17, 11:43*am, Matthew Dickinson
wrote: You can now buy coffee in London with an ITSO compatible card. seehttp://www.squidcard.com/coffeerepublic.html I can't help but think that this is what the big hole that calls itself Visa payWave should have been? Neil |
Coffee & ITSO
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:43:57 -0800, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
You can now buy coffee in London with an ITSO compatible card. see http://www.squidcard.com/coffeerepublic.html This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard. I've had a pay pass enabled mastercard for some time now but I've not found anywhere that accepts it. According to Mastercard loads of places in London accept it though! peter |
Coffee & ITSO
On 17 Dec, 18:38, naked_draughtsman
wrote: I've had a pay pass enabled mastercard for some time now but I've not found anywhere that accepts it. According to Mastercard loads of places in London accept it though! It appears they're going for rollout by stealth. Eventually one day everyone will have wave and pay cards via natural replacement, and then they can think about widespread deployment to retailers. U |
Coffee & ITSO
"Mr Thant" wrote in message ... On 17 Dec, 18:38, naked_draughtsman wrote: I've had a pay pass enabled mastercard for some time now but I've not found anywhere that accepts it. According to Mastercard loads of places in London accept it though! It appears they're going for rollout by stealth. Eventually one day everyone will have wave and pay cards via natural replacement, and then they can think about widespread deployment to retailers. Or it will crash and burn like the previous attempts at e-money. At least this time they have the sense not to be trying to charge the user for the card tim U |
Coffee & ITSO
On 17 Dec, 18:38, naked_draughtsman wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:43:57 -0800, Matthew Dickinson wrote: You can now buy coffee in London with an ITSO compatible card. see http://www.squidcard.com/coffeerepublic.html This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard. I've had a pay pass enabled mastercard for some time now but I've not found anywhere that accepts it. According to Mastercard loads of places in London accept it though! I remember when Visa's "payWave" system launched last year (the first card being the all-in-one Barclaycard "OnePulse") there was talk of initial limited acceptance in a few places like shops in Canary Wharf. So I was rather surprised that, having seen a payWave terminal in a swanky newsagents in Canary Wharf, I then found one a few days later in a pretty rough-round-the-edges off licence in New Cross - and yes they said a few people had already paid that way. Incidentally, I assume that the Visa "payWave" and Mastercard "PayPass" systems are compatible, in that a payment terminal in a shop can handle both Mastercard and Visa cards? Regarding the original post - very interesting about the ITSO-based 'sQuid card', though I need to do a bit of reading to decipher everything that's going on here, what with the GMPTE agreement to trial it and also Bolton council's involvement. And as Neil has already said, in a sense this is similar to what Visa payWave offers (as well as Mastercard PayPass) - and I'm sure there are coffee establishments that accept those RFID cards. That said I haven't yet come across a payWave or PayPass card that is prepaid - i.e. one that you can top-up (as you now can with a few prepaid debit cards) - at the moment the payWave and PayPass cards are being offered by to the higher-ish-end of the market. The sQuidcard people appear to hope that they can tap in to a far wider market than that, e.g. kids. Lastly there were once plans for London's Oyster card to act as an e- money system as well (i.e. to enable holders to buy low value items not just pay for fares), but these got shelved back in 2006 - here's an article about the plan being ditched... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05...tcard_shelved/ The aforementioned piece doesn't however touch on the issues of TfL effectively having to act as a bank and the burden of the associated regulation that would ensue if this plan was to go ahead, which I have read elsewhere was a significant factor in the plans being dropped. Given the possible security issues that now surround the MiFare Classic smartcard (which Oyster uses), this is perhaps just as well. Anyway, when it comes to buying low value items (apart from local fares where Oyster is a boon), I've never had any particular issues with using cash! From Mondex onwards, cashless payment systems for small purchases seems to have been regarded as the holy grail (see all the notions of cashless payment by mobile or 'm-payments') - I wonder if it isn't just technology desperately looking for a use... |
Coffee & ITSO
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:40:14 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: [itso smart system branching out] Anyway, when it comes to buying low value items (apart from local fares where Oyster is a boon), I've never had any particular issues with using cash! From Mondex onwards, cashless payment systems for small purchases seems to have been regarded as the holy grail (see all the notions of cashless payment by mobile or 'm-payments') - I wonder if it isn't just technology desperately looking for a use... Take a look at the now very wide spread of uses and companies involved in Octopus in Hong Kong. Also look at the interesting way the "card" is marketed. http://www.octopuscards.com/consumer/en/index.jsp I think we have a very long way to go to get near this sort of widespread use. I shall be getting an Octopus in a week's time and this time I might well be tempted to use it for something other than travel just to see how convenient it is. -- Paul C |
Coffee & ITSO
In uk.railway Paul Corfield wrote:
Take a look at the now very wide spread of uses and companies involved in Octopus in Hong Kong. Also look at the interesting way the "card" is marketed. What is it with the aquatic names? Oyster, Squid, Octopus, Goldfish? Mine's a Wildebeest card, please. Theo |
Coffee & ITSO
On 17 Dec 2008 22:01:03 +0000 (GMT), Theo Markettos
wrote: In uk.railway Paul Corfield wrote: Take a look at the now very wide spread of uses and companies involved in Octopus in Hong Kong. Also look at the interesting way the "card" is marketed. What is it with the aquatic names? Oyster, Squid, Octopus, Goldfish? Mine's a Wildebeest card, please. To be fair I believe Hong Kong was there first. Anything to due with "eight" is considered auspicious by the Chinese so Octopus makes sense in that context. Everyone else has simply followed their lead (or not!). -- Paul C |
Coffee & ITSO
Mizter T wrote Anyway, when it comes to buying low value items (apart from local fares where Oyster is a boon), I've never had any particular issues with using cash! From Mondex onwards, cashless payment systems for small purchases seems to have been regarded as the holy grail (see all the notions of cashless payment by mobile or 'm-payments') - I wonder if it isn't just technology desperately looking for a use... I paid all I had, £1.17, for a large coffee the other day 'cause the guy hadn't change for £10. If you haven't had problems with "exact money only" and "no change given" you must carry about a fair bit of cash. Hence the schemes for parking and parking meter payment with mobile phones ? What we haven't got is an easy method for micropayments, less than £2 say and especially over the phone and over the net. -- Mike D |
Coffee & ITSO
In article 01c9608a$6670ed80$LocalHost@default,
"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: If you haven't had problems with "exact money only" and "no change given" you must carry about a fair bit of cash. Hence the schemes for parking and parking meter payment with mobile phones ? What we haven't got is an easy method for micropayments, less than £2 say and especially over the phone and over the net. I've used the US Express Pay system at vending machines a few times when I either haven't enough change or the machine spits back dollar bills. I just wave my AMEX or Visa card over the flashing blue light and a few seconds later my $1.25 bottle of coke is delivered. |
Coffee & ITSO
On 2008-12-17 19:40:14 +0000, Mizter T said:
On 17 Dec, 18:38, naked_draughtsman wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:43:57 -0800, Matthew Dickinson wrote: You can now buy coffee in London with an ITSO compatible card. see http://www.squidcard.com/coffeerepublic.html This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard. I've had a pay pass enabled mastercard for some time now but I've not found anywhere that accepts it. According to Mastercard loads of places in London accept it though! I remember when Visa's "payWave" system launched last year (the first card being the all-in-one Barclaycard "OnePulse") there was talk of initial limited acceptance in a few places like shops in Canary Wharf. So I was rather surprised that, having seen a payWave terminal in a swanky newsagents in Canary Wharf, I then found one a few days later in a pretty rough-round-the-edges off licence in New Cross - and yes they said a few people had already paid that way. Incidentally, I assume that the Visa "payWave" and Mastercard "PayPass" systems are compatible, in that a payment terminal in a shop can handle both Mastercard and Visa cards? Regarding the original post - very interesting about the ITSO-based 'sQuid card', though I need to do a bit of reading to decipher everything that's going on here, what with the GMPTE agreement to trial it and also Bolton council's involvement. And as Neil has already said, in a sense this is similar to what Visa payWave offers (as well as Mastercard PayPass) - and I'm sure there are coffee establishments that accept those RFID cards. That said I haven't yet come across a payWave or PayPass card that is prepaid - i.e. one that you can top-up (as you now can with a few prepaid debit cards) - at the moment the payWave and PayPass cards are being offered by to the higher-ish-end of the market. The sQuidcard people appear to hope that they can tap in to a far wider market than that, e.g. kids. Lastly there were once plans for London's Oyster card to act as an e- money system as well (i.e. to enable holders to buy low value items not just pay for fares), but these got shelved back in 2006 - here's an article about the plan being ditched... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05...tcard_shelved/ The aforementioned piece doesn't however touch on the issues of TfL effectively having to act as a bank and the burden of the associated regulation that would ensue if this plan was to go ahead, which I have read elsewhere was a significant factor in the plans being dropped. Given the possible security issues that now surround the MiFare Classic smartcard (which Oyster uses), this is perhaps just as well. Anyway, when it comes to buying low value items (apart from local fares where Oyster is a boon), I've never had any particular issues with using cash! From Mondex onwards, cashless payment systems for small purchases seems to have been regarded as the holy grail (see all the notions of cashless payment by mobile or 'm-payments') - I wonder if it isn't just technology desperately looking for a use... I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts. Cash is well developed, the bugs have been ironed out of it and it's easy to see your current balance. The only disadvantage is that you have to ensure that you have some in your pocket when you set out. Is that so difficult? People have managed it for thousands of years. There is an argument that sometimes you don't have the right money for 'exact amount only' transactions. I've only come across this concept on some bus services and car parking machines. It is the attitude of organisations which treats their customers with disdain. I cannot imagine my local corner shop putting up a notice saying 'exact payment only'. The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewhere is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above all, works? -- Robert |
Coffee & ITSO
On Dec 18, 7:09*am, Robert wrote:
On 2008-12-17 19:40:14 +0000, Mizter T said: On 17 Dec, 18:38, naked_draughtsman wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:43:57 -0800, Matthew Dickinson wrote: You can now buy coffee in London with an ITSO compatible card. seehttp://www.squidcard.com/coffeerepublic.html This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard. I've had a pay pass enabled mastercard for some time now but I've not found anywhere that accepts it. According to Mastercard loads of places in London accept it though! I remember when Visa's "payWave" system launched last year (the first card being the all-in-one Barclaycard "OnePulse") there was talk of initial limited acceptance in a few places like shops in Canary Wharf. So I was rather surprised that, having seen a payWave terminal in a swanky newsagents in Canary Wharf, I then found one a few days later in a pretty rough-round-the-edges off licence in New Cross - and yes they said a few people had already paid that way. Incidentally, I assume that the Visa "payWave" and Mastercard "PayPass" systems are compatible, in that a payment terminal in a shop can handle both Mastercard and Visa cards? Regarding the original post - very interesting about the ITSO-based 'sQuid card', though I need to do a bit of reading to decipher everything that's going on here, what with the GMPTE agreement to trial it and also Bolton council's involvement. And as Neil has already said, in a sense this is similar to what Visa payWave offers (as well as Mastercard PayPass) - and I'm sure there are coffee establishments that accept those RFID cards. That said I haven't yet come across a payWave or PayPass card that is prepaid - i.e. one that you can top-up (as you now can with a few prepaid debit cards) - at the moment the payWave and PayPass cards are being offered by to the higher-ish-end of the market. The sQuidcard people appear to hope that they can tap in to a far wider market than that, e.g. kids. Lastly there were once plans for London's Oyster card to act as an e- money system as well (i.e. to enable holders to buy low value items not just pay for fares), but these got shelved back in 2006 - here's an article about the plan being ditched... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05...tcard_shelved/ The aforementioned piece doesn't however touch on the issues of TfL effectively having to act as a bank and the burden of the associated regulation that would ensue if this plan was to go ahead, which I have read elsewhere was a significant factor in the plans being dropped. Given the possible security issues that now surround the MiFare Classic smartcard (which Oyster uses), this is perhaps just as well. Anyway, when it comes to buying low value items (apart from local fares where Oyster is a boon), I've never had any particular issues with using cash! From Mondex onwards, cashless payment systems for small purchases seems to have been regarded as the holy grail (see all the notions of cashless payment by mobile or 'm-payments') - I wonder if it isn't just technology desperately looking for a use... I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts. Cash is well developed, the bugs have been ironed out of it and it's easy to see your current balance. The only disadvantage is that you have to ensure that you have some in your pocket when you set out. Is that so difficult? People have managed it for thousands of years. There is an argument that sometimes you don't have the right money for 'exact amount only' transactions. I've only come across this concept on some bus services and car parking machines. It is the attitude of organisations which treats their customers with disdain. I cannot imagine my local corner shop putting up a notice saying 'exact payment only'. The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewhere is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above all, works? Electronic tagging. It's all going in the database. When they find that people who drink coffee have more heart attacks, your database record of beverage purchases will be used to deny you insurance etc etc. |
Coffee & ITSO
On 18 Dec, 07:09, Robert wrote:
On 2008-12-17 19:40:14 +0000, Mizter T said: On 17 Dec, 18:38, naked_draughtsman wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:43:57 -0800, Matthew Dickinson wrote: You can now buy coffee in London with an ITSO compatible card. seehttp://www.squidcard.com/coffeerepublic.html This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard. I've had a pay pass enabled mastercard for some time now but I've not found anywhere that accepts it. According to Mastercard loads of places in London accept it though! I remember when Visa's "payWave" system launched last year (the first card being the all-in-one Barclaycard "OnePulse") there was talk of initial limited acceptance in a few places like shops in Canary Wharf. So I was rather surprised that, having seen a payWave terminal in a swanky newsagents in Canary Wharf, I then found one a few days later in a pretty rough-round-the-edges off licence in New Cross - and yes they said a few people had already paid that way. Incidentally, I assume that the Visa "payWave" and Mastercard "PayPass" systems are compatible, in that a payment terminal in a shop can handle both Mastercard and Visa cards? Regarding the original post - very interesting about the ITSO-based 'sQuid card', though I need to do a bit of reading to decipher everything that's going on here, what with the GMPTE agreement to trial it and also Bolton council's involvement. And as Neil has already said, in a sense this is similar to what Visa payWave offers (as well as Mastercard PayPass) - and I'm sure there are coffee establishments that accept those RFID cards. That said I haven't yet come across a payWave or PayPass card that is prepaid - i.e. one that you can top-up (as you now can with a few prepaid debit cards) - at the moment the payWave and PayPass cards are being offered by to the higher-ish-end of the market. The sQuidcard people appear to hope that they can tap in to a far wider market than that, e.g. kids. Lastly there were once plans for London's Oyster card to act as an e- money system as well (i.e. to enable holders to buy low value items not just pay for fares), but these got shelved back in 2006 - here's an article about the plan being ditched... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05...tcard_shelved/ The aforementioned piece doesn't however touch on the issues of TfL effectively having to act as a bank and the burden of the associated regulation that would ensue if this plan was to go ahead, which I have read elsewhere was a significant factor in the plans being dropped. Given the possible security issues that now surround the MiFare Classic smartcard (which Oyster uses), this is perhaps just as well. Anyway, when it comes to buying low value items (apart from local fares where Oyster is a boon), I've never had any particular issues with using cash! From Mondex onwards, cashless payment systems for small purchases seems to have been regarded as the holy grail (see all the notions of cashless payment by mobile or 'm-payments') - I wonder if it isn't just technology desperately looking for a use... I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts. Cash is well developed, the bugs have been ironed out of it and it's easy to see your current balance. The only disadvantage is that you have to ensure that you have some in your pocket when you set out. Is that so difficult? People have managed it for thousands of years. There is an argument that sometimes you don't have the right money for 'exact amount only' transactions. I've only come across this concept on some bus services and car parking machines. It is the attitude of organisations which treats their customers with disdain. I cannot imagine my local corner shop putting up a notice saying 'exact payment only'. The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewhere is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above all, works? -- Replacing cash is beneficial when you don't interface with a human, but a machine. Machines are not good at taking notes and feel vulnerable when left alone at night, so much prefer handling e-cash. All the micro payment cards suffer from chicken and egg problems. Retailers don't take them because users don't get them. Users don't get them because retailers don't take them. Humans have a problem with cards because you don't know how much money you have left on the card. (Remember those phone cards where you could count the dots used?) |
Coffee & ITSO
On 18 Dec, 09:45, disgoftunwells wrote:
Humans have a problem with cards because you don't know how much money you have left on the card. That's why [a tiny subset of] people are interested in mobile phone near-field communications. Basically the "card" is embedded in the phone, and you can check the balance and load credit onto it using the phone's screen and internet connection. U |
Coffee & ITSO
On 18 Dec, 09:49, Mr Thant
wrote: On 18 Dec, 09:45, disgoftunwells wrote: Humans have a problem with cards because you don't know how much money you have left on the card. That's why [a tiny subset of] people are interested in mobile phone near-field communications. Basically the "card" is embedded in the phone, and you can check the balance and load credit onto it using the phone's screen and internet connection. The whole ITSO concept for adhoc tickets (as opposed to season tickets, where the DfT can force people to use an ITSO card whether they want it or not) is predicated on these NFC phones being widely deployed AND used. As yet you can't buy an NFC phone in Car Phone Warehouse. That might change, it might not. It took Bluetooth about 6 years to go from leading edge to ubiquitous, but it's still not widely used except for handsfree kits. |
Coffee & ITSO
Robert wrote in news:2008121807091316807-
coppercapped@googlemailcom: The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewhere is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above all, works? I don't disagree with what you say, but there are some other reasons. One is the cost of handling cash, especially when it has to be collected from otherwise unmanned places like vending machines. The other is security and audit; for example vending machines are frequently stolen or broken into and the cost of repair or replacement usually greatly exceeds the value of the money inside. Coin, and especially note, accepting equipment is expensive and much less reliable and prone to vandalism than RFID interfaces. Even at a manned position, RFID transactions are faster than cash, so that at a busy place fewer counter staff are required, or queues can be handled faster (as can be seen by reduced dwell times on buses since the introduction of Oyster). Peter -- Peter Campbell Smith ~ London ~ pjcs00 (a) gmail.com |
Coffee & ITSO
On 2008-12-18 08:56:25 +0000, MIG said:
On Dec 18, 7:09*am, Robert wrote: On 2008-12-17 19:40:14 +0000, Mizter T said: On 17 Dec, 18:38, naked_draughtsman wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:43:57 -0800, Matthew Dickinson wrote: You can now buy coffee in London with an ITSO compatible card. seehttp://www.squidcard.com/coffeerepublic.html This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard. I've had a pay pass enabled mastercard for some time now but I've not found anywhere that accepts it. According to Mastercard loads of places in London accept it though! I remember when Visa's "payWave" system launched last year (the first card being the all-in-one Barclaycard "OnePulse") there was talk of initial limited acceptance in a few places like shops in Canary Wharf. So I was rather surprised that, having seen a payWave terminal in a swanky newsagents in Canary Wharf, I then found one a few days later in a pretty rough-round-the-edges off licence in New Cross - and yes they said a few people had already paid that way. Incidentally, I assume that the Visa "payWave" and Mastercard "PayPass" systems are compatible, in that a payment terminal in a shop can handle both Mastercard and Visa cards? Regarding the original post - very interesting about the ITSO-based 'sQuid card', though I need to do a bit of reading to decipher everything that's going on here, what with the GMPTE agreement to trial it and also Bolton council's involvement. And as Neil has already said, in a sense this is similar to what Visa payWave offers (as well as Mastercard PayPass) - and I'm sure there are coffee establishments that accept those RFID cards. That said I haven't yet come across a payWave or PayPass card that is prepaid - i.e. one that you can top-up (as you now can with a few prepaid debit cards) - at the moment the payWave and PayPass cards are being offered by to the higher-ish-end of the market. The sQuidcard people appear to hope that they can tap in to a far wider market than that, e.g. kids. Lastly there were once plans for London's Oyster card to act as an e- money system as well (i.e. to enable holders to buy low value items not just pay for fares), but these got shelved back in 2006 - here's an article about the plan being ditched... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05...tcard_shelved/ The aforementioned piece doesn't however touch on the issues of TfL effectively having to act as a bank and the burden of the associated regulation that would ensue if this plan was to go ahead, which I have read elsewhere was a significant factor in the plans being dropped. Given the possible security issues that now surround the MiFare Classic smartcard (which Oyster uses), this is perhaps just as well. Anyway, when it comes to buying low value items (apart from local fares where Oyster is a boon), I've never had any particular issues with using cash! From Mondex onwards, cashless payment systems for small purchases seems to have been regarded as the holy grail (see all the notions of cashless payment by mobile or 'm-payments') - I wonder if it isn't just technology desperately looking for a use... I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts. Cash is well developed, the bugs have been ironed out of it and it's easy to see your current balance. The only disadvantage is that you have to ensure that you have some in your pocket when you set out. Is that so difficult? People have managed it for thousands of years. There is an argument that sometimes you don't have the right money for 'exact amount only' transactions. I've only come across this concept on some bus services and car parking machines. It is the attitude of organisations which treats their customers with disdain. I cannot imagine my local corner shop putting up a notice saying 'exact payment only'. The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewhere is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above all, works? Electronic tagging. It's all going in the database. When they find that people who drink coffee have more heart attacks, your database record of beverage purchases will be used to deny you insurance etc etc. That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Now. Thirty years ago it would have shocked me. -- Robert |
Coffee & ITSO
On 2008-12-18 10:13:36 +0000, Peter Campbell Smith
said: Robert wrote in news:2008121807091316807- coppercapped@googlemailcom: The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewhere is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above all, works? I don't disagree with what you say, but there are some other reasons. One is the cost of handling cash, especially when it has to be collected from otherwise unmanned places like vending machines. The other is security and audit; for example vending machines are frequently stolen or broken into and the cost of repair or replacement usually greatly exceeds the value of the money inside. I assume the machines have to be visited to be re-stocked. Then remove the money at the same time. It is not necessary to make two visits. If they are so often stolen or broken into then they can't be very profitable because of all the extra costs. Remove them. Coin, and especially note, accepting equipment is expensive and much less reliable and prone to vandalism than RFID interfaces. Agreed. Even at a manned position, RFID transactions are faster than cash, so that at a busy place fewer counter staff are required, or queues can be handled faster (as can be seen by reduced dwell times on buses since the introduction of Oyster). Peter I have seen supermarkets (on the continent I will admit) where the change (in coin) was held in an automatic machine at the checkout. You handed the check-out person your money, the amount was registered in the till and the change was automatically delivered down a chute. Only notes were handed out by hand. It was very quick. This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that hasn't worked. I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost, then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor.... -- Robert |
Coffee & ITSO
On 17 Dec 2008 23:19:01 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote: I paid all I had, £1.17, for a large coffee the other day 'cause the guy hadn't change for £10. IMX, it's mainly only bus drivers that don't have enough float to change even small value notes - it's not usual for a shop to have done it to me. Though I've not paid a *London* cash fare for ages. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Coffee & ITSO
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Robert wrote:
This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that hasn't worked. When first tried the disasterous implementation of on-bus ticketing on the ftr they neatly avoided "how to give change" problem by .. not giving any. It wouldn't even let you get two tickets at 2.50 each with five pound coins. If you were lucky it would be broken and so not only was the jouyrney free, but it was also a lot quicker. Other than perhaps the "chuck your cash in the bucket" type of machine (such as used on the Dartford crossing) i think it's generally quicker to pay cash by handing it to someone than feeding it into a machine. I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost, then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor.... Which is what they had to do in the end on the ftr. Smartcards only save dwell times if most people use them. It's no good having two people us them on a full double decker if everyone else is going to pay by cash - especially when they don't even start to look for their money until the driver has told them how much it'll be. -- Chris Johns |
Coffee & ITSO
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:11:12 +0000, Robert
wrote: I have seen supermarkets (on the continent I will admit) where the change (in coin) was held in an automatic machine at the checkout. You handed the check-out person your money, the amount was registered in the till and the change was automatically delivered down a chute. Only notes were handed out by hand. It was very quick. Very common in Germany. It's not complex technology - basically just part of a vending machine. The clever thing about it is that the chute leads to a "pot" that's exactly the right size/shape for picking up your coins in one go. Far better than the cashier handing you them together with the notes underneath which has always seemed to me to be the wrong way around. Wouldn't surprise me if these popped up in Aldi and the likes, to be honest, these being German supermarkets where costs are kept down by making the checkout service very quick rather than throwing staff at the problem as UK ones tend to. This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that hasn't worked. It would be ideal for buses, and if change was only issued because the machine determined it should be, and not on demand from the driver, it would offer the security of a farebox system yet the flexibility of the driver giving change. But could UK bus operators maintain them properly? Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Coffee & ITSO
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:45:27 +0000, Chris Johns
wrote: When first tried the disasterous implementation of on-bus ticketing on the ftr they neatly avoided "how to give change" problem by .. not giving any. It wouldn't even let you get two tickets at 2.50 each with five pound coins. If you were lucky it would be broken and so not only was the jouyrney free, but it was also a lot quicker. When there was a gbp1 ticket on offer, the ****-poor London off-bus machines wouldn't allow that either. (This has been dealt with by increasing the fare to be equal to the smallest coin they take) Those machines were in principle a nice idea, but were poorly-located. In the right place, they would have allowed people to pay for their journey while the bus was already moving. But smartcards and period tickets are a far better way to deal with the problem. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Coffee & ITSO
On 18 Dec, 11:45, Chris Johns wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Robert wrote: This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that hasn't worked. When first tried the disasterous implementation of on-bus ticketing on the ftr they neatly avoided "how to give change" problem by .. not giving any. It wouldn't even let you get two tickets at 2.50 each with five pound coins. If you were lucky it would be broken and so not only was the jouyrney free, but it was also a lot quicker. Other than perhaps the "chuck your cash in the bucket" type of machine (such as used on the Dartford crossing) i think it's generally quicker to pay cash by handing it to someone than feeding it into a machine. I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost, then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor.... Which is what they had to do in the end on the ftr. Smartcards only save dwell times if most people use them. It's no good having two people us them on a full double decker if everyone else is going to pay by cash - especially when they don't even start to look for their money until the driver has told them how much it'll be. A slight tangent, but when Oyster was first introduced in LU/NR barriers it was actually a lot slower, in that an Oyster touch took longer to release the barrier than sticking a ticket through (and it was variable from barrier to barrier). Now it seems to have been speeded up. |
Coffee & ITSO
On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote: On 2008-12-18 10:13:36 +0000, Peter Campbell Smith said: Robert wrote in news:2008121807091316807- coppercapped@googlemailcom: The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewhere is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above all, works? I don't disagree with what you say, but there are some other reasons. One is the cost of handling cash, especially when it has to be collected from otherwise unmanned places like vending machines. The other is security and audit; for example vending machines are frequently stolen or broken into and the cost of repair or replacement usually greatly exceeds the value of the money inside. I assume the machines have to be visited to be re-stocked. Then remove the money at the same time. It is not necessary to make two visits. If they are so often stolen or broken into then they can't be very profitable because of all the extra costs. Remove them. The argument is that they wouldn't be broken in to (or at least not nearly as often) if they didn't contain cash. I think that's a pretty strong argument, to be honest. Plus with a number of such vending/self-service machines is it not the case that sometimes the restocking and the cash emptying are carried out separately? I'm not enough of an observer of such matters to know that much about them. With some, such as car parking payment machines, the predominant issue will be emptying them of cash as opposed to restocking them - especially in the case of multi-storey car park payment machines (though I suppose these may issue a receipt, so that roll needs would need to be restocked - they'll certainly need to if payment is made via credit/debit card). Coin, and especially note, accepting equipment is expensive and much less reliable and prone to vandalism than RFID interfaces. Agreed. Much the point I was making above. Even at a manned position, RFID transactions are faster than cash, so that at a busy place fewer counter staff are required, or queues can be handled faster (as can be seen by reduced dwell times on buses since the introduction of Oyster). I have seen supermarkets (on the continent I will admit) where the change (in coin) was held in an automatic machine at the checkout. You handed the check-out person your money, the amount was registered in the till and the change was automatically delivered down a chute. Only notes were handed out by hand. It was very quick. This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that hasn't worked. Do they issue change? I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost, then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor.... Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more frequent. To be fair, before Oyster buses in London had a significant number of passengers who already held pre-paid tickets - either season tickets or day tickets (in either case Travelcards or bus passes), both of which were available for purchase in many local newsagents - so there were already many people flashing tickets at the driver (though it's likely these people were commuters on their regular journey). However lots of people were still paying cash on board (and at the time there was not a flat fare scheme either so they had to request a destination or alternatively the correct fare). The Oyster card is an electronic smart card - it works by the passenger touching the card on a reader. It has two modes - either loaded with a Travelcard or bus pass, or alternatively in pay-as-you- go (PAYG) mode whereby the passenger tops up their card with a load of credit (this can be done at many newsagents and corner shops, and also at Underground stations and a few rail stations). The appropriate amount is then deducted from the PAYG balance when the passenger travels - a flat fare of 90p (£1 from January) for bus journeys where all a passenger needs to do is 'touch-in' on boarding, differing fares on the Underground (and a few rail routes) where a passenger needs to 'touch-in' and then 'touch-out' for the correct fare to be deducted (if they don't touch-out the highest fare is charged). The amount deducted and PAYG balance is shown on a display on the bus ticket machine (though it is hard too see and catch in time), it can also be obtained by checking on the readers in the aforementioned shops, and also at self-service ticket machines at Underground and a few rail stations. If one registers their card appropriately the balance can also be found online, albeit updated every night. It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel. Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an unjustifiable luxury. |
Coffee & ITSO
On 18 Dec, 11:45, Chris Johns wrote:
(snip) Smartcards only save dwell times if most people use them. It's no good having two people us them on a full double decker if everyone else is going to pay by cash - especially when they don't even start to look for their money until the driver has told them how much it'll be. The vast majority of people on London buses are now using Oyster (or the Oyster-compatible Freedom Pass for residents who are 60+ or disabled). And if they're not using Oyster they'll be using a pre-paid paper ticket (e.g. season or Day Travelcard), or an English national bus pass. One thing I omitted to mention in my reply to Robert is that in central London there is now a 'pay-before-you-board' regime for buses - actually this is something of a misnomer considering that these days most people already have pre-paid tickets, but for those that don't they need to buy a ticket (or a one-day bus pass) from the roadside ticket machine at the bus stop. |
Coffee & ITSO
In uk.transport.london Robert wrote:
I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts. Cash is well developed, the bugs have been ironed out of it and it's easy to see your current balance. Being cynical, I think you'll find that's a misfeature. Plastic has the 'advantage' (for the retailer) that the customer cannot easily see their balance and is tempted to spend more. Hence the reason why cash is on the rise again, as people are trying to keep more control over their finances. Theo |
Coffee & ITSO
Theo Markettos wrote:
In uk.transport.london Robert wrote: I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts. Cash is well developed, the bugs have been ironed out of it and it's easy to see your current balance. Being cynical, I think you'll find that's a misfeature. Plastic has the 'advantage' (for the retailer) that the customer cannot easily see their balance and is tempted to spend more. Hence the reason why cash is on the rise again, as people are trying to keep more control over their finances. I find that only buying stuff I need works for me. |
Coffee & ITSO
On 2008-12-18 13:46:50 +0000, Mizter T said:
On 18 Dec, 11:45, Chris Johns wrote: (snip) Smartcards only save dwell times if most people use them. It's no good having two people us them on a full double decker if everyone else is going to pay by cash - especially when they don't even start to look for their money until the driver has told them how much it'll be. The vast majority of people on London buses are now using Oyster (or the Oyster-compatible Freedom Pass for residents who are 60+ or disabled). And if they're not using Oyster they'll be using a pre-paid paper ticket (e.g. season or Day Travelcard), or an English national bus pass. One thing I omitted to mention in my reply to Robert is that in central London there is now a 'pay-before-you-board' regime for buses - actually this is something of a misnomer considering that these days most people already have pre-paid tickets, but for those that don't they need to buy a ticket (or a one-day bus pass) from the roadside ticket machine at the bus stop. I didn't know that, thank you. -- Robert |
Coffee & ITSO
On 2008-12-18 13:27:27 +0000, Mizter T said:
On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote: On 2008-12-18 10:13:36 +0000, Peter Campbell Smith said: Robert wrote in news:2008121807091316807- coppercapped@googlemailcom: The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewher e is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above all, works? I don't disagree with what you say, but there are some other reasons. One is the cost of handling cash, especially when it has to be collected fr om otherwise unmanned places like vending machines. The other is security and audit; for example vending machines are frequently stolen or broken int o and the cost of repair or replacement usually greatly exceeds the value of the money inside. I assume the machines have to be visited to be re-stocked. Then remove the money at the same time. It is not necessary to make two visits. If they are so often stolen or broken into then they can't be very profitable because of all the extra costs. Remove them. The argument is that they wouldn't be broken in to (or at least not nearly as often) if they didn't contain cash. I think that's a pretty strong argument, to be honest. Plus with a number of such vending/self-service machines is it not the case that sometimes the restocking and the cash emptying are carried out separately? I'm not enough of an observer of such matters to know that much about them. With some, such as car parking payment machines, the predominant issue will be emptying them of cash as opposed to restocking them - especially in the case of multi-storey car park payment machines (though I suppose these may issue a receipt, so that roll needs would need to be restocked - they'll certainly need to if payment is made via credit/debit card). Coin, and especially note, accepting equipment is expensive and much le ss reliable and prone to vandalism than RFID interfaces. Agreed. Much the point I was making above. Even at a manned position, RFID transactions are faster than cash, so t hat at a busy place fewer counter staff are required, or queues can be hand led faster (as can be seen by reduced dwell times on buses since the introduction of Oyster). I have seen supermarkets (on the continent I will admit) where the change (in coin) was held in an automatic machine at the checkout. You handed the check-out person your money, the amount was registered in the till and the change was automatically delivered down a chute. Only notes were handed out by hand. It was very quick. This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that hasn't worked. Do they issue change? I don't know if all of them do. The buses on my local route were run by a bus company on the edge of Munich which took part in the transport co-operative, but ran routes further out into the country. These machines did give change, as long as the 'change' side of the machine had any money in it. If not then it defaulted to exact fare only. In the centre the machines on buses run by the MVG (the city run bus, tram and U-bahn organisation) looked to be slightly different. I never used one as I had my inner-city season ticket for such journeys so I don't know if they gave change. The next time I go there I'll have a look. I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost, then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor.... Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more frequent. Snipped It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel. Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an unjustifiable luxury. Thank you for the explanation - I didn't realise that it was a flat fare system. -- Robert |
Coffee & ITSO
On 18 Dec, 16:26, "John Rowland"
wrote: Theo Markettos wrote: In uk.transport.london Robert wrote: I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts. Cash is well developed, the bugs have been ironed out of it and it's easy to see your current balance. Being cynical, I think you'll find that's a misfeature. *Plastic has the 'advantage' (for the retailer) that the customer cannot easily see their balance and is tempted to spend more. *Hence the reason why cash is on the rise again, as people are trying to keep more control over their finances. I find that only buying stuff I need works for me. I find that getting money out the bank (either cash or debit) is the psychologically big step. Once the cash is in my pocket it's already out of the bank and effectively gone. |
Coffee & ITSO
On 18 Dec, 16:52, Robert wrote: On 2008-12-18 13:27:27 +0000, Mizter T said: On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote: (much snipping) This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that hasn't worked. Do they issue change? I don't know if all of them do. The buses on my local route were run by a bus company on the edge of Munich which took part in the transport co-operative, but ran routes further out into the country. These machines did give change, as long as the 'change' side of the machine had any money in it. If not then it defaulted to exact fare only. In the centre the machines on buses run by the MVG (the city run bus, tram and U-bahn organisation) looked to be slightly different. I never used one as I had my inner-city season ticket for such journeys so I don't know if they gave change. The next time I go there I'll have a look. Thanks for the details. Despite taking an interest in matters transportational, I invariably manage to miss or look straight through loads of such things when when I'm visiting somewhere else. I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost, then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor..... Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more frequent. Snipped It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel. Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an unjustifiable luxury. Thank you for the explanation - I didn't realise that it was a flat fare system. Flat fares on buses, yes (not on the Tube, as I mentioned). Other smartcard systems elsewhere in the world work do however work on a tap- in and tap-out policy, which means that the fares don't have to be flat. This could I suppose be implemented in London but it would be a hassle after everyone having got used to flat-fares - the alternative of having to tell the driver what fare you want before having your card validated as appropriate would be a massively retrograde step and recreate a situation similar to the slow pay-as-you-board days of old. These days people just touch-in on the machine next to the driver as they board - all the driver needs to do is verify that everyone is doing just that. (And on bendy buses passengers can board by any door as there are Oyster scanners next to all three - roving teams of inspectors travel on bendy buses doing random ticket checks.) One thing I didn't mention is the daily capping system. On buses this is simple - each journey costs 90p, but the cost of travelling by bus in any one day (i.e. 0430 to 0429) is capped at £3 - so in other words your fourth bus journey will cost you 30p, and your fifth and any beyond that are 'free'. This capping system also applies to using the Tube - and indeed the Tube *and* buses - but it does get rather more complicated as both the time of travel and in the case of the Tube the zones travelled through all affect the price cap that gets applied. That said, so long as you always touch-in and touch-out on the Tube (and the few rail services that accept Oyster pay-as-you-go) then the cheapest daily price cap will be applied automatically. |
Coffee & ITSO
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:43:57 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson
wrote: This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard. I'll believe that when I see it... |
Coffee & ITSO
On 2008-12-18 19:38:17 +0000, Mizter T said:
On 18 Dec, 16:52, Robert wrote: On 2008-12-18 13:27:27 +0000, Mizter T said: On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote: (much snipping) This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that hasn't worked. Do they issue change? I don't know if all of them do. The buses on my local route were run by a bus company on the edge of Munich which took part in the transport co-operative, but ran routes further out into the country. These machines did give change, as long as the 'change' side of the machine had any money in it. If not then it defaulted to exact fare only. In the centre the machines on buses run by the MVG (the city run bus, tram and U-bahn organisation) looked to be slightly different. I never used one as I had my inner-city season ticket for such journeys so I don't know if they gave change. The next time I go there I'll have a look. Thanks for the details. Despite taking an interest in matters transportational, I invariably manage to miss or look straight through loads of such things when when I'm visiting somewhere else. I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost, then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor.. .. Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more frequent. Snipped It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel. Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an unjustifiable luxury. Thank you for the explanation - I didn't realise that it was a flat fare system. Flat fares on buses, yes (not on the Tube, as I mentioned). Other smartcard systems elsewhere in the world work do however work on a tap- in and tap-out policy, which means that the fares don't have to be flat. This could I suppose be implemented in London but it would be a hassle after everyone having got used to flat-fares - the alternative of having to tell the driver what fare you want before having your card validated as appropriate would be a massively retrograde step and recreate a situation similar to the slow pay-as-you-board days of old. These days people just touch-in on the machine next to the driver as they board - all the driver needs to do is verify that everyone is doing just that. (And on bendy buses passengers can board by any door as there are Oyster scanners next to all three - roving teams of inspectors travel on bendy buses doing random ticket checks.) One thing I didn't mention is the daily capping system. On buses this is simple - each journey costs 90p, but the cost of travelling by bus in any one day (i.e. 0430 to 0429) is capped at £3 - so in other words your fourth bus journey will cost you 30p, and your fifth and any beyond that are 'free'. This capping system also applies to using the Tube - and indeed the Tube *and* buses - but it does get rather more complicated as both the time of travel and in the case of the Tube the zones travelled through all affect the price cap that gets applied. That said, so long as you always touch-in and touch-out on the Tube (and the few rail services that accept Oyster pay-as-you-go) then the cheapest daily price cap will be applied automatically. Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard and just feed it through the slots in the gates. As a result I have never bothered to find out how Oyster works. -- Robert |
Coffee & ITSO
I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts. Whenever I'm in Tokyo I sling twenty quid on my Suica card, even if I'm not going to be travelling much. It's far easier to pay for odds and ends with a few seconds' waving of a card, rather than fiddling with cash --- which either means counting out the right amount, or waiting for change --- and it also has a major advantage for anyone travelling on business that you can extract a report from a machine and use it for your expenses claim. (Before anyone says it, yes, it's in Japanese, but because I work for a Japanese company the guy that signs overseas expenses claims is himself Japanese). The scheme has rolled out over the whole station ecosystem, so you can buy breakfast in those strange almost but not quite european bakeries, a bento for lunch and a coffee on your way back in the evening. I presume it has an upper limit: I've never tried buying anything substantial. ian |
Coffee & ITSO
One thing I omitted to mention in my reply to Robert is that in central London there is now a 'pay-before-you-board' regime for buses - actually this is something of a misnomer considering that these days most people already have pre-paid tickets, but for those that don't they need to buy a ticket (or a one-day bus pass) from the roadside ticket machine at the bus stop. Indeed. And London is now usable for ad hoc bus journeys: you can get on a bus headed in roughly the right direction, slap your Oyster or wave your day Travelcard, and then look out the window for either where you're going or an alarming turn off the obvious route. Contrast the shambles that is Birmingham, where the system is essentially unusable even for residents: I've used more buses recently in each of London, New York, Tokyo, all blessed with various pre-pay systems, than I have in my own city. ian |
Coffee & ITSO
It would be ideal for buses, and if change was only issued because the machine determined it should be, and not on demand from the driver, it would offer the security of a farebox system yet the flexibility of the driver giving change. I have a memory of that system being used on Exeter buses in the 1970s, but I could be completely wrong. ian |
Coffee & ITSO
Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard Get an Oyster. If you happen to make fewer journeys than the price of a ODT, you save. If you make more, it's capped anyway. It spares you having to decide in advance which zones you want, and you don't need to queue to get it. The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure (perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses. ian |
Coffee & ITSO
|
Coffee & ITSO
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 01:37 PM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk