On 19 Dec, 11:16, Railist wrote:

On 18 Dec, 21:15, wrote:

Has anyone any suggestions or will I already get the best deal from LU.? By
the way, I would need an Oyster Card and not a paper ticket as I often go
over the Zone 2 boundary on PAYG.
Thanks in advance for any guidance.

I was going to suggest South West Trains as you get 6 return journeys
on their network. First Great Western have just started the same
scheme but has not actually started yet. The problem is SWT do not
issue season tickets on oyster so no good to you for PAYG over
boundary.

Now that PAYG is valid on FGW does anybody know if you can buy season
tickets from them on oyster ? It might be possible at Ealing Broadway
but that station is in zone 3 and I dont think they issue oyster cards
yet at Paddington.

South West Trains at Wimbledon issue Season Tickets on Oyster paper,
although it may look odd that you're being it from a Zone 3 station...
when I bought my Zones 1-3 from there they studied my address in some
detail as they knew it wasn't Wimbledon!

Eh? ... "on Oyster paper" ... "may look odd that you're being it from
a Zone 3 station" ...

Might you be so kind as to clarify what you were trying to say?

On 19 Dec, 00:13, MIG wrote:

On Dec 18, 9:18 pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip OP's question)

Good question, one that I've wondered about in the past. First off,
obviously the only National Rail ticket offices that deal with Oyster
whatsoever are at stations where Oyster PAYG is accepted.

And Lewisham, for some reason, although I think the ticket office can
only do it by going off somewhere away from the counter, so not ideal
to ask for if there's a queue behind you.


Well, Oyster PAYG is accepted at Lewisham - it's just that it's only
accepted on the DLR, not on Southeastern's own trains.

Anyway I've been intending on posting something to this effect for a
while because it would interest Barry Salter. The system in use at
Lewisham is one which he was postulating on but was unsure about
whether it existed out in the wild - well, as MIG's post suggests, it
is indeed out in the wild!

Basically the problem is that many of TOCs new Ticket Issuing Systems
(aka TIS) are not compatible with Oyster - I believe Southeastern use
the Fujitsu Star TIS, which falls into that category. The workaround
is as follows...

When a passenger wants an Oyster product (PAYG topup or season
Travelcard), a conventional paper coupon (i.e. ticket) is issued using
the normal TIS - this paper coupon and the Oyster card are then taken
to a separate Oyster-compatible terminal where the Oyster card is
placed on the Oyster pad and the coupon is fed in to a magnetic stripe
reader. The product on the coupon is then loaded by the terminal on to
the Oyster card whilst the magnetic stripe reader cancels the coupon
out so it can't be used again.

It's easy to actually see this process happen at Lewisham through the
glass window as the Oyster terminal is located up against the middle
of the back wall of the booking office and there's a clear line of
sight to it.

(Before the ELL closed I topped up my Oyster card at New Cross once
and I'm pretty sure this is the process they used as well, but I just
couldn't see it happening. Indeed, I suspect that theoretically the
New Cross ticket office should still be offering Oyster top-ups to use
on the ELL replacement bus, despite the fact that said buses only
charge a 'fare' of 0p, just as they should still be capable of selling
LU tickets - whether they actually do any of these things is another
matter, perhaps if I'm passing I'll go and test them out with a
request to topup my Oyster.)

The question in my mind (related to that of the OP) is basically
whether Travelcards issued using this process are 'owned' by TfL or
Southeastern - i.e. are Southeastern basically acting as an agent for
TfL in selling Oyster products, so for monthly or longer Travelcards
you will need a card that's already been registered with TfL, or will
Southeastern also want to take your details too as they would for a
monthly-or-longer paper Travelcard?

I suspect it's the former - i.e. they are keeping it simple - but in
that case then those renewing their season Travelcard would not be
able to take advantage of any Passenger's Charter discounts or any
extra special offers that the TOC makes available for their own Gold
Card customers above and beyond the standard Gold Card offering (if
indeed the Lewisham ticket office are actually allowed and/or willing
to sell an annual Travelcard loaded on Oyster at all).

On 19 Dec, 11:08, MIG wrote:

On 19 Dec, 01:23, MIG wrote:

On Dec 19, 12:32 am, SamB wrote:

On Dec 19, 12:13 am, MIG wrote:

(smip)

And Lewisham, for some reason, although I think the ticket office can
only do it by going off somewhere away from the counter, so not ideal
to ask for if there's a queue behind you.

The reason being (I assume) that the DLR station has an oyster
machine, and Southeastern got fed up of people renewing Oyster cards
in the DLR station, then using Southeastern.

I don't know that that explains it. Firstly, DLR was accepting PAYG
long before there was a machine (which was installed a while before
the ticket office facility).


For the sake of clarity for other readers, the machine to which he
refers is an LU-style credit/debit card only 'Quickticket' machine,
albeit one that only sells Oyster products (topups and season
Travelcards) - this was installed a while back next to Southeastern's
ticket windows.


Secondly, the Oyster machine is at the NR ticket office, and thirdly
DLR stations don't generally have Oyster machines or any facility for
topping up Oyster* unless they are also LU stations. There must be
some reason why Lewisham is different.


The explanation for the Southeastern ticket office being able to sell
Oyster products (which is a much more recent innovation) is surely the
simple one of demand. Southeastern were willing to do so (and earn the
resultant commission), and the DLR and TfL wants to make it easier for
people to be able to topup. And passengers wanted it as well - they
can topup at the ticket office with cash (bear (remember the
Quickticket machine only takes cards), and also many people struggle
somewhat with using self-service ticket machines as well. Voila - the
ticket windows selling Oyster products sorts out several problems at
once.


*A sometimes open booth at Canary Wharf being an apparent exception.

There's also a booth at City Airport station, and was there not one at
Tower Gateway too?


Whaddayaknow. Just as I say that, I see that they are installing
brand new ticket machines at DLR stations which (can) have Oyster pads
attached.


Yes indeed - I think Lewisham was one of the first to get one of these
new machines. Thus far there's only one of them - it's replaced one of
the two old-style machines at the main road (i.e. Loampit Vale)
entrance to the DLR platforms. There the same design of TVM that FCC
(and FGW?) have installed at some stations lately - it's an odd
angular design that to me seems to have faintly dated futuristic look
about them (for some reason I thought 'Dr Who' when I saw it!).

Anyway it's good that at last the DLR appears to be getting some
Oyster-compatible TVMs - are there any others anywhere else, or is
this just a trial? I dunno if there were perhaps some possible
contractual complications when it comes to providing these - as is it
not the case that on the Lewisham extension the infrastructure
concessionaire, CGL Rail, gets to keep all the revenue from ticket
sales at the stations on the line? If so, does the same apply to the
concessionaire CARE and WARE on the City Airport and Woolwich
extensions? I've certainly seen that the people emptying the cash from
the TVMs on the Lewisham extension are CGL Rail staff (wearing CGL
Rail-marked high-vis and driving a van emblazoned with the CGL Rail
logo).

-----
[1] Acronym de-mystifier...
CARE = City Airport Rail Enterprises
WARE = Woolwich Arsenal Rail Enterprises

On 19 Dec, 16:30, Mizter T wrote:
On 19 Dec, 11:08, MIG wrote:





On 19 Dec, 01:23, MIG wrote:

On Dec 19, 12:32 am, SamB wrote:

On Dec 19, 12:13 am, MIG wrote:

(smip)

And Lewisham, for some reason, although I think the ticket office can
only do it by going off somewhere away from the counter, so not ideal
to ask for if there's a queue behind you.

The reason being (I assume) that the DLR station has an oyster
machine, and Southeastern got fed up of people renewing Oyster cards
in the DLR station, then using Southeastern.

I don't know that that explains it. *Firstly, DLR was accepting PAYG
long before there was a machine (which was installed a while before
the ticket office facility).

For the sake of clarity for other readers, the machine to which he
refers is an LU-style credit/debit card only 'Quickticket' machine,
albeit one that only sells Oyster products (topups and season
Travelcards) - this was installed a while back next to Southeastern's
ticket windows.



Secondly, the Oyster machine is at the NR ticket office, and thirdly
DLR stations don't generally have Oyster machines or any facility for
topping up Oyster* unless they are also LU stations. *There must be
some reason why Lewisham is different.

The explanation for the Southeastern ticket office being able to sell
Oyster products (which is a much more recent innovation) is surely the
simple one of demand. Southeastern were willing to do so (and earn the
resultant commission), and the DLR and TfL wants to make it easier for
people to be able to topup.


Just on this point, I think that willingness is the key factor.

Demand is plentiful all over the place, but it hasn't resulted in
willingness. I remember remarking in the past how it was odd that the
most backward TOC at accepting PAYG was the most forward at selling
it.

SWT, supposedly ahead in the race to accept PAYG, certainly wasn't
much cop at selling it when I was last in the south western sticks
about a year ago.

It's also slightly innocuous that Lewisham NR is nowhere near being
gated yet.

On 19 Dec, 16:30, Mizter T wrote:
Yes indeed - I think Lewisham was one of the first to get one of these
new machines. Thus far there's only one of them - it's replaced one of
the two old-style machines at the main road (i.e. Loampit Vale)
entrance to the DLR platforms.

Canary Wharf has them, as does Woolwich Arsenal.

There the same design of TVM that FCC
(and FGW?) have installed at some stations lately - it's an odd
angular design that to me seems to have faintly dated futuristic look
about them (for some reason I thought 'Dr Who' when I saw it!).

I thought 1980s arcade game when I first saw an FCC one.

U

On 19 Dec, 18:31, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 19 Dec, 16:30, Mizter T wrote:

Yes indeed - I think Lewisham was one of the first to get one of these
new machines. Thus far there's only one of them - it's replaced one of
the two old-style machines at the main road (i.e. Loampit Vale)
entrance to the DLR platforms.

Canary Wharf has them, as does Woolwich Arsenal.


In that sentence I was just referring to the situation at Lewisham -
there's an old-style machine still in place next to it, and two more
up on the covered concourse above the platforms (near where the
National Rail ticket windows are).

It's good to hear that they now exist elsewhere (the one at Woolwich
is presumably currently turned off). I'm guessing that at least
initially the roll out will follow this pattern of just replacing one
old-style machine and leaving the other(s) in place - the DLR has a
lot of TVMs after all, and I don't think they're that close to being
life expired, or are they?


There the same design of TVM that FCC
(and FGW?) have installed at some stations lately - it's an odd
angular design that to me seems to have faintly dated futuristic look
about them (for some reason I thought 'Dr Who' when I saw it!).

I thought 1980s arcade game when I first saw an FCC one.


Yeah, that's a good call. I dunno why Dr Who came to mind as it's not
like I'm a particular Dr Who aficionado, and it doesn't look much like
a tardis/ police call box either!

Are they S&B or Shere?

On 19 Dec, 15:16, Mizter T wrote:
On 19 Dec, 11:16, Railist wrote:



On 18 Dec, 21:15, wrote:

Has anyone any suggestions or will I already get the best deal from LU.? By
the way, I would need an Oyster Card and not a paper ticket as I often go
over the Zone 2 boundary on PAYG.
Thanks in advance for any guidance.

I was going to suggest South West Trains as you get 6 return journeys
on their network. *First Great Western have just started the same
scheme but has not actually started yet. *The problem is SWT do not
issue season tickets on oyster so no good to you for PAYG over
boundary.

Now that PAYG is valid on FGW does anybody know if you can buy season
tickets from them on oyster ? *It might be possible at Ealing Broadway
but that station is in zone 3 and I dont think they issue oyster cards
yet at Paddington.

South West Trains at Wimbledon issue Season Tickets on Oyster paper,
although it may look odd that you're being it from a Zone 3 station...
when *I bought my Zones 1-3 from there they studied my address in some
detail as they knew it wasn't Wimbledon!

Eh? ... "on Oyster paper" ... "may look odd that you're being it from
a Zone 3 station" ...

Might you be so kind as to clarify what you were trying to say?

I meant Oyster card.

Wimbledon staff were suspicious of my address when I first bought my
Oyster annual card. They knew my address wasn't Wimbledon. So I had to
explain why I was buying it there and not from my local station. So,
someone buying a Zone 1,2 Travelcard from a Zone 3 station may be met
with similar suspicion.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:06:35 -0800 (PST), Railist
wrote:

Wimbledon staff were suspicious of my address when I first bought my
Oyster annual card. They knew my address wasn't Wimbledon. So I had to
explain why I was buying it there and not from my local station.

How strange. I've bought season tickets all over the place, depending
where I happen to be when a ticket office is open. This year it was
Oxford Circus. I pay with a company cheque and they ask me for the
company's address (not mine) - but I have to give the accounts
department, which is near Liverpool Street - a station which I very
rarely visit!

On 20 Dec, 09:06, Railist wrote:

On 19 Dec, 15:16, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Dec, 11:16, Railist wrote:

On 18 Dec, 21:15, wrote:

(snip)

Now that PAYG is valid on FGW does anybody know if you can buy season
tickets from them on oyster ? *It might be possible at Ealing Broadway
but that station is in zone 3 and I dont think they issue oyster cards
yet at Paddington.

South West Trains at Wimbledon issue Season Tickets on Oyster paper,
although it may look odd that you're being it from a Zone 3 station....
when *I bought my Zones 1-3 from there they studied my address in some
detail as they knew it wasn't Wimbledon!

Eh? ... "on Oyster paper" ... "may look odd that you're being it from
a Zone 3 station" ...

Might you be so kind as to clarify what you were trying to say?

I meant Oyster card.

Wimbledon staff were suspicious of my address when I first bought my
Oyster annual card. They knew my address wasn't Wimbledon. So I had to
explain why I was buying it there and not from my local station. So,
someone buying a Zone 1,2 Travelcard from a Zone 3 station may be met
with similar suspicion.


OK, well in that case you have apparently been successful in doing
exactly what the OP was asking about (and I was very curious about).

I presume you went to Wimbledon so as to buy it from South West Trains
so you could take advantage of their extra "Gold Service" benefits
[1]. So these were still available to you even though you were buying
your Gold Card on Oyster?

A few further things of note

(a) Apart from the six free tickets for weekend journeys anywhere on
the SWT network, are there any other SWT "Gold Service" benefits which
are above and beyond the standard Gold Card benefits [3]?

(b) The Gold Service T&Cs [2] explicitly exclude season Travelcards
(apart from 'all zones' aka zones 1-6) from receiving the six free
weekend tickets. (Maybe this rule is inconsistantly implemented.)

(c) The T&Cs do suggest that you need to/should actually "use our
[i.e.SWT's] services". I've no idea whether this is enforced in any
way - indeed when it comes to Travelcards it is arguably unenforceable
- but this is likely to be the cause of the suspicion on the part of
the staff at Wimbledon, what with you obviously giving an address that
wasn't local.

Incidentally how did you deal with the aforementioned suspicion - tell
them that you regularly travelled to Wimbledon or used SWT trains in
your daily commute or something? Perhaps I shouldn't ask the follow on
question of whether you actually do!


-----
[1] "Gold Service" being what SWT call the benefits they offer their
Gold Card holders above and beyond the standard Gold Card benefits
that all TOCs offer - more he
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWT...oldService.htm
[2] "Gold Service" T&Cs
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWT...m#gold_service
[3] The standard Gold Card benefits are listed he
https://www.trainsfares.co.uk/season...d_benefits.asp

On 20 Dec, 15:18, James Farrar wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:06:35 -0800 (PST), Railist

wrote:
Wimbledon staff were suspicious of my address when I first bought my
Oyster annual card. They knew my address wasn't Wimbledon. So I had to
explain why I was buying it there and not from my local station.

How strange. I've bought season tickets all over the place, depending
where I happen to be when a ticket office is open. This year it was
Oxford Circus. I pay with a company cheque and they ask me for the
company's address (not mine) - but I have to give the accounts
department, which is near Liverpool Street - a station which I very
rarely visit!


I think the suspicion would have been the result of staff being on the
lookout for people from the other side of London buying their Gold
Cards there so as to take advantage of SWT's "Gold Service", given
that you are supposed to actually use their trains in order to benefit
- though AFAICS unless one is actually buying an annual 'all zones'
aka zones 1-6 Travelcard then SWT doesn't actually offer any
additional benefits (coz you don't get the free weekend tickets).

I suppose a more general suspicion of possible fraud may also arise
when the purchaser of an expensive season ticket gives an address
that's obviously not in the area. Such things would be unlikely to
arouse any suspicion at a central-ish area LU station, but I dare say
you might raise eyebrows if you were to head out to the opposite side
of London and try and buy a ticket there. Then again, perhaps people
grasping company cheques are considered more trustworthy, and in
addition if you are renewing, esp. if you are a long-time 'customer',
then maybe that also contributes to your kosherness-rating, as it
were.

By the by, I presume the relatively recent no cheques policy on LU is
no *personal* cheques, not no *company* cheques?