On Dec 19, 6:02*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 19 Dec, 16:53, MIG wrote:





On 19 Dec, 16:30, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

The explanation for the Southeastern ticket office being able to sell
Oyster products (which is a much more recent innovation) is surely the
simple one of demand. Southeastern were willing to do so (and earn the
resultant commission), and the DLR and TfL wants to make it easier for
people to be able to topup.

Just on this point, I think that willingness is the key factor.

Demand is plentiful all over the place, but it hasn't resulted in
willingness. *I remember remarking in the past how it was odd that the
most backward TOC at accepting PAYG was the most forward at selling
it

.
Er, it would be really rather daft for an NR station to sell Oyster
PAYG topups if they did not also accept PAYG on their trains from that
same station, would it not?

Not at all, given that the real demand is for travelcards on Oyster
(which people repeatedly tell me, and I know, is the solution to south-
Londoners getting screwed for £4 when occasionally extending by one
stop on LU).

I am not aware of any Oyster facility that issues only travelcards, so
if the facility to sell travelcards would necessarily allow PAYG
topups as well.


Sure, people who wanted to use it for bus-travelling purposes would be
helped out a bit, but not those who wanted to travel on the trains.

Of course if NR stations were to sell season Travelcards on Oyster,
then that would be a somewhat different proposition (and one that
would address your requirements MIG!). As well as other issues, I
wonder if the TOCs have issues about revenue distribution (in terms of
commission) when to comes to selling Travelcards on Oyster - as I said
earlier, perhaps by so doing they simply become agents for TfL when
they would instead prefer to keep the money to themselves - or at
least within the Rail Settlement Plan (RSP) revenue distribution
system (perhaps that way they can earn interest on it until they need
to give it away, whilst with Oyster they'd need to give the money to
TfL and wait for some of it to come back).

My card statements suggest that the card-only machine at Lewisham NR,
which I have used a few times, is owned by TfL. I don't see any
obvious connection with the DLR though. I've only used it to get
travelcards (and got paper ones on the many occasions when it was
broken).




SWT, supposedly ahead in the race to accept PAYG, certainly wasn't
much cop at selling it when I was last in the south western sticks
about a year ago.

SWT sell Oyster topups at Wimbledon and Richmond, though perhaps not
from all the ticket windows.

Because they are served by LU, like New Cross.


It's also slightly innocuous that Lewisham NR is nowhere near being
gated yet.

I fin it very hard to see how on earth Lewisham could ever be gated,
unless the through bus and cab road was totally done away with and it
was all one big gated complex encompassing both NR and DLR platforms
(with ticket offices near the main road?). That seems highly
improbable.

I didn't mean to imply that it ought to be. Just that the usual
motivation for NR to get involved with Oyster at all is when they want
to have barriers and barriers have to allow Oyster travelcards
through. This motivation doesn't exist at Lewisham, and yet they are
ahead of the game on selling it.


So instead let's consider gating just the NR platforms. Platforms 2
and 3 are directly accessible from the main (old) station building
whilst this also provides access to the old subway to platforms 1 and
4. However there are also subways from near the new ticket office on
the 'DLR concourse' to platforms 1 and 4 as well as the extra side
entrance to platform 3 (all the latter are currently closed for the
installation of lifts). The main station building could play host to
gates and would enclose the old subway, but I'm not sure whether it's
a realistic proposal to put gates on the other entrances to platforms
as well. Perhaps it could be done.


I am still mystified as to what the arrangement might be when all the
building works finish.

On 19 Dec, 22:15, MIG wrote:

On Dec 19, 6:02 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Dec, 16:53, MIG wrote:

(snip)

Demand is plentiful all over the place, but it hasn't resulted in
willingness. I remember remarking in the past how it was odd that the
most backward TOC at accepting PAYG was the most forward at selling
it.

Er, it would be really rather daft for an NR station to sell Oyster
PAYG topups if they did not also accept PAYG on their trains from that
same station, would it not?

Not at all, given that the real demand is for travelcards on Oyster
(which people repeatedly tell me, and I know, is the solution to south-
Londoners getting screwed for £4 when occasionally extending by one
stop on LU).

I am not aware of any Oyster facility that issues only travelcards, so
if the facility to sell travelcards would necessarily allow PAYG
topups as well.


Understood. I'm sure the PAYG topup function could be disabled if
that's what was really required.

By the by - and I'm not saying it is a solution by any means - but the
number of shops that deal with Oyster has increased quite a bit
recently.

Eventually this will become an issue of the past when Oyster is
accepted on rail routes everywhere in London. Operative word in that
sentence being eventually, of course.


Sure, people who wanted to use it for bus-travelling purposes would be
helped out a bit, but not those who wanted to travel on the trains.

Of course if NR stations were to sell season Travelcards on Oyster,
then that would be a somewhat different proposition (and one that
would address your requirements MIG!). As well as other issues, I
wonder if the TOCs have issues about revenue distribution (in terms of
commission) when to comes to selling Travelcards on Oyster - as I said
earlier, perhaps by so doing they simply become agents for TfL when
they would instead prefer to keep the money to themselves - or at
least within the Rail Settlement Plan (RSP) revenue distribution
system (perhaps that way they can earn interest on it until they need
to give it away, whilst with Oyster they'd need to give the money to
TfL and wait for some of it to come back).

My card statements suggest that the card-only machine at Lewisham NR,
which I have used a few times, is owned by TfL. I don't see any
obvious connection with the DLR though. I've only used it to get
travelcards (and got paper ones on the many occasions when it was
broken).


Woah, you've really rather missed my point. I was talking about NR
ticket offices that issue Oyster. I wasn't in any doubt that the card
only 'Quickticket' self-service machine is owned and operated by TfL -
it hasn't got anything to do with Southeastern at all apart from being
near their ticket windows. It's presence there is on the basis of
Lewisham being a DLR station, pure and simple - whilst it is operated
by TfL themselves (I suspect it's actually an LUL machine, and is
serviced by their contractor Cubic) it is there on the DLR's leave to
remain, as it were. (How TfL deals with sharing the proceeds generated
with the DLR's infrastructure concessionaire CGL Rail is an internal
TfL matter, and is completely immaterial to any dealings with
Southeastern.)

The point I was trying to make was that the TOCs may well be somewhat
uneasy and unhappy with the lesser position in the food chain that
they might then assume when they are selling Oyster products -
obviously the greater degree of their sales that are on Oyster, then
the greater degree of their unease. I was just trying to scratch
beneath the service and hypothecate on some of the less obvious and
more hidden reasons on why TOCs are wary of Oyster. I dare say that it
is partially explained by a loss of control and associated distancing
from the piggy bank that may well be exercising them.

And the more "Oyster on NR" is a political imperative, the higher the
stakes in the endgame as the TOCs try and secure the most beneficial
deal for themselves. I doubt the TOCs are simply being awkward just
for the fun of it.


SWT, supposedly ahead in the race to accept PAYG, certainly wasn't
much cop at selling it when I was last in the south western sticks
about a year ago.

SWT sell Oyster topups at Wimbledon and Richmond, though perhaps not
from all the ticket windows.

Because they are served by LU, like New Cross.

I know that full well. So where "in the south western sticks" were you
unsuccessfully trying to top up at then, if not at Wimbledon or
Richmond?


It's also slightly innocuous that Lewisham NR is nowhere near being
gated yet.

I find it very hard to see how on earth Lewisham could ever be gated,
unless the through bus and cab road was totally done away with and it
was all one big gated complex encompassing both NR and DLR platforms
(with ticket offices near the main road?). That seems highly
improbable.

I didn't mean to imply that it ought to be. Just that the usual
motivation for NR to get involved with Oyster at all is when they want
to have barriers and barriers have to allow Oyster travelcards
through. This motivation doesn't exist at Lewisham, and yet they are
ahead of the game on selling it.


They are "ahead of the game" at Lewisham simply because of the
presence of the DLR. They don't have any motivation to sell Oyster
products at any of their other stations (apart from New Cross when the
ELL reopens) until they start to accept Oyster PAYG on their trains.


So instead let's consider gating just the NR platforms. Platforms 2
and 3 are directly accessible from the main (old) station building
whilst this also provides access to the old subway to platforms 1 and
4. However there are also subways from near the new ticket office on
the 'DLR concourse' to platforms 1 and 4 as well as the extra side
entrance to platform 3 (all the latter are currently closed for the
installation of lifts). The main station building could play host to
gates and would enclose the old subway, but I'm not sure whether it's
a realistic proposal to put gates on the other entrances to platforms
as well. Perhaps it could be done.

I am still mystified as to what the arrangement might be when all the
building works finish.


Though to be clear the building works are only for the installation of
lifts, there's no associated gating going along - at least nothing
that I've heard of.

On Dec 20, 12:14*am, Mizter T wrote:

ought to cut some of long, interesting discussion

They are "ahead of the game" at Lewisham simply because of the
presence of the DLR. They don't have any motivation to sell Oyster
products at any of their other stations (apart from New Cross when the
ELL reopens) until they start to accept Oyster PAYG on their trains.

Just on this point, this is the reasoning I can't follow, given that,
till very recently, pure DLR stations have not allowed Oyster topups,
so why there? And if it's for the DLR, why not at Loampit Vale where
the new machine is?

My hypothesis is that it's an LUL machine there to provide a service
for a very busy NR station that is unusually lacking in nearby shops
that could provide for for the thousands of people who want Oyster
travelcards.

There is a high demand for this at busy NR stations all over London,
particularly south. I think the presence of the DLR is a red herring,
and if it's not, it ought to be. (That is, my hypothesis relates to
the greatest benefit to travellers.)

So instead let's consider gating just the NR platforms. Platforms 2
and 3 are directly accessible from the main (old) station building
whilst this also provides access to the old subway to platforms 1 and
4. However there are also subways from near the new ticket office on
the 'DLR concourse' to platforms 1 and 4 as well as the extra side
entrance to platform 3 (all the latter are currently closed for the
installation of lifts). The main station building could play host to
gates and would enclose the old subway, but I'm not sure whether it's
a realistic proposal to put gates on the other entrances to platforms
as well. Perhaps it could be done.

I am still mystified as to what the arrangement might be when all the
building works finish.

Though to be clear the building works are only for the installation of
lifts, there's no associated gating going along - at least nothing
that I've heard of.

Sounds likely, although I was wondering if there was any possibility
of new short cuts or easier routes in general.

On Dec 20, 12:14*am, Mizter T wrote:


SWT, supposedly ahead in the race to accept PAYG, certainly wasn't
much cop at selling it when I was last in the south western sticks
about a year ago.

SWT sell Oyster topups at Wimbledon and Richmond, though perhaps not
from all the ticket windows.

Because they are served by LU, like New Cross.

I know that full well. So where "in the south western sticks" were you
unsuccessfully trying to top up at then, if not at Wimbledon or
Richmond?

Sorry, forgot to address that point. Of course, one wouldn't actually
expect NR stations not served by LU to sell Oyster, but just might
hope that the stations that have installed Oyster-reading barriers or
whose TOCs are due to accept PAYG soonest might be first to start.

Although I did once want to top up at Richmond, and I found that there
were long queues at several windows with no indication of which window
could sell Oyster. Rather than queue a long time to be told to start
again at a different window, I gave up and found a shop (relatively
easy at Richmond).

On 20 Dec, 09:22, MIG wrote:
My hypothesis is that it's an LUL machine there to provide a service
for a very busy NR station that is unusually lacking in nearby shops
that could provide for for the thousands of people who want Oyster
travelcards.

I wouldn't be surprised if that demand wasn't stoked by the presence
of the DLR. In particular, I can imagine DLR passengers used to spend
all day every day hassling the Southeastern ticket office for Oyster
cards and top ups.

U

On Dec 20, 11:06*am, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 20 Dec, 09:22, MIG wrote:

My hypothesis is that it's an LUL machine there to provide a service
for a very busy NR station that is unusually lacking in nearby shops
that could provide for for the thousands of people who want Oyster
travelcards.

I wouldn't be surprised if that demand wasn't stoked by the presence
of the DLR. In particular, I can imagine DLR passengers used to spend
all day every day hassling the Southeastern ticket office for Oyster
cards and top ups.

I wouldn't be surprised if it tipped the balance, but the DLR in
general is only now responding to the demand at all other DLR
stations, and SET commuters certainly benefited.