In article 04c4064f-94fc-4a7b-bef2-
, says...
On 19 Jan, 10:44, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:

I remember seeing this proposed 40+ years ago. I showed it to my old
man (who worked on the Met) who said it was originally planned
pre-war.

Was there ever any thought given during the original construction of
the Met branch to a link-up? Or was there too much competition
between the LNER and the LMSR?

I don't know, but a Met station was built in Watford High St and is still
there AFAIK. The line never reached it.

Might be useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford...tation#History

...though I believe the article to be wrong. It claims "Revolution" as
the location, but other sources claim "Moon Under the Water". Hard to
tell from the photograph in the cited reference which is correct,
though I suspect it is in fact MUtW.

The W&RR built the line to Ricky in the late 1800s, the LMSR built the
Croxley Green branch around the early 1900s, then the Met built their
Watford Branch, with Watford Met opening in the 20's as direct
competition. The Ricky line had options over the early years of being
extended to High Wycombe (long before the GC joint line was
conceived), and apparently Uxbridge via Harefield.


"Historically it was the Metropolitan Railway's intention to extend its
Watford branch onwards into central Watford via a tunnel under
Cassiobury Park. Watford Metropolitan Line station was constructed at a
lower level in preparation for a cut-and-cover tunnel across the park.
This plan was vetoed by the Earl of Essex, who objected to the
ventilation shafts necessary for the steam trains of that era. The
planned Watford Central station building on Watford High Street,
opposite Clarendon Road, still exists as The Moon under Water Public
House; this building was intended to be the booking hall for the
station"

taken from the wikipedia Croxley Rail Link [no citation given though]

"Mizter T" wrote:
Better still, use DMUs and run it through to Aylesbury!
Indeed, a very interesting idea - has this ever been mooted before
because it's the first time I've heard of such a notion?
It's not as though the Met line is a stranger to DMUs of course.

If it happens, it'll be a Chiltern initiative, not TfL.
Boris won't fund it, but if it's commercially viable, Chiltern will be all
over it like a rash.
Provided they can spare the capacity over their lines, of course!
--

Andrew

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

"THC" wrote in message
...
This is excellent news, although every time an additional approval for
the Croxley Rail Link is granted in this tortuous process, the cost
goes up and the proposed completion date stretches further away.

THC

It states on the proposal that trains would run every ten minutes. Yet on
the Amersham branch there are now only two trains an hour (I think I am
correct in saying this?) how come there would be such a variance?

Current service from Watford - Baker Street is every 10 minutes. It is
this,
and not the Amersham trains, that would be diverted to run from Watford
Junction. There have, however, in the past been suggestions that if the
link
is built there should also be a shuttle service from Watford Junction to
Amersham or Chesham.

I wonder if the sponsors are expecting the Met into WJ to become a feeder to
LM and Euston, or a realistic route from WJ towards Baker St. And how does
Bakerloo to WJ stand up in the event the Met is already there?

Paul S

"Paul Scott" wrote...
I wonder if the sponsors are expecting the Met into WJ to become a feeder
to LM and Euston, or a realistic route from WJ towards Baker St. And how
does Bakerloo to WJ stand up in the event the Met is already there?

I'm sure it will be a feeder for other routes - especially for London; I'm
sure someone has worked out how far up the line you'd need to be to save
time (though not money) taking a faster train to Euston than travelling
south on the Met.

I doubt it'll have a huge effect on the Bakerloo, except removing a few
London-bound passengers. But how many people use the Bakerloo all the way to
baker street? Can't be many, can it?

Has anyone done the time comparison - Virgin / LM / Met / Bakerloo ?

(is the Virgin service still possible?)
--

Andrew

"If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z.
Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:07:27 -0000,
Andrew Heenan wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote...
I wonder if the sponsors are expecting the Met into WJ to become a feeder
to LM and Euston, or a realistic route from WJ towards Baker St. And how
does Bakerloo to WJ stand up in the event the Met is already there?

I'm sure it will be a feeder for other routes - especially for London; I'm
sure someone has worked out how far up the line you'd need to be to save
time (though not money) taking a faster train to Euston than travelling
south on the Met.

I doubt it'll have a huge effect on the Bakerloo, except removing a few
London-bound passengers. But how many people use the Bakerloo all the way to
baker street? Can't be many, can it?

Has anyone done the time comparison - Virgin / LM / Met / Bakerloo ?

(is the Virgin service still possible?)

Virgin isn't possible (legally).

LM Watford Junction - Euston around 20 mins.

Baker Street - Watford Met around 35 mins on a fast train to Moor Park
(I did this the night the wires came down near Wembley after 2.5 hours
Euston-Euston) Normally more like 45 mins according to the TFL journey
planner.

Baker Street - Harrow and Wealdstone give 33 mins and H&W-WJ gives 16
mins on overground.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

"Tim Woodall" wrote ...
Has anyone done the time comparison - Virgin / LM / Met / Bakerloo ?
Virgin isn't possible (legally).
LM Watford Junction - Euston around 20 mins.
Baker Street - Watford Met around 35 mins on a fast train to Moor Park
(I did this the night the wires came down near Wembley after 2.5 hours
Euston-Euston) Normally more like 45 mins
Baker Street - Harrow and Wealdstone give 33 mins
and H&W-WJ gives 16 mins on overground.

Thanks for that.
The time penalty isn't as bad as I suspected - and with the extra costs of
using LM, probably many more leisure passengers would use Bakerloo or Met
than I thought. I'd happily take a book and 25 mins extra if I didn't have a
tight schedule!

Of course once Oyster fares are standardised across the 'real' railway, the
Met's advantages begin to disappear, for Watford folk, at least.
--

Andrew

"Andrew Heenan" wrote in message
...

Thanks for that.
The time penalty isn't as bad as I suspected - and with the extra costs of
using LM, probably many more leisure passengers would use Bakerloo or Met
than I thought. I'd happily take a book and 25 mins extra if I didn't have
a tight schedule!

Of course once Oyster fares are standardised across the 'real' railway,
the Met's advantages begin to disappear, for Watford folk, at least.

ITYF there are no 'extra' costs for using LM, or even SN to Clapham
Junction, they are in the Travelcard and Oyster PAYG scheme already, it was
all sorted out a week or two after the start of LO services.

Unless there is another unlikely change, WJ will remain a special fare
'beyond zone 8'...

Paul S

On Jan 19, 4:50*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andrew Heenan" wrote in message

...

Thanks for that.
The time penalty isn't as bad as I suspected - and with the extra costs of
using LM, probably many more leisure passengers would use Bakerloo or Met
than I thought. I'd happily take a book and 25 mins extra if I didn't have
a tight schedule!

Of course once Oyster fares are standardised across the 'real' railway,
the Met's advantages begin to disappear, for Watford folk, at least.

ITYF there are no 'extra' costs for using LM, or even SN to Clapham
Junction, they are in the Travelcard and Oyster PAYG scheme already, it was
all sorted out a week or two after the start of LO services.


Yes, but Watford Junction is still more expensive than Watford Met.
Peak Oyster single fare from Watford Junction to Zone 1 is £6.50, from
Watford Met is £4.70. Watford Junction is NOT in the travelcard
scheme, tickets are now Watford Junction plus Zones 1-9. One day
Travelcard costs a zones 1-9 (including Watford Met) £9.00, zones
1-9 plus Watford Junction £13.50.

Unless there is another unlikely change, WJ will remain a special fare
'beyond zone 8'...

Paul S

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Jan 19, 4:50 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andrew Heenan" wrote in message

...

Thanks for that.
The time penalty isn't as bad as I suspected - and with the extra costs
of
using LM, probably many more leisure passengers would use Bakerloo or
Met
than I thought. I'd happily take a book and 25 mins extra if I didn't
have
a tight schedule!

Of course once Oyster fares are standardised across the 'real' railway,
the Met's advantages begin to disappear, for Watford folk, at least.

ITYF there are no 'extra' costs for using LM, or even SN to Clapham
Junction, they are in the Travelcard and Oyster PAYG scheme already, it
was
all sorted out a week or two after the start of LO services.


Yes, but Watford Junction is still more expensive than Watford Met.
Peak Oyster single fare from Watford Junction to Zone 1 is £6.50, from
Watford Met is £4.70.

I thought you might say that actually, but it's academic, because Watford
Met will be shut. The LM fare from WJ is THE fare to Euston, LO is, and
presumably LU will, be the same?

Paul

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:38:15 -0800 (PST),
Andy wrote:
On Jan 19, 4:50*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andrew Heenan" wrote in message

...

Thanks for that.
The time penalty isn't as bad as I suspected - and with the extra costs of
using LM, probably many more leisure passengers would use Bakerloo or Met
than I thought. I'd happily take a book and 25 mins extra if I didn't have
a tight schedule!

Of course once Oyster fares are standardised across the 'real' railway,
the Met's advantages begin to disappear, for Watford folk, at least.

ITYF there are no 'extra' costs for using LM, or even SN to Clapham
Junction, they are in the Travelcard and Oyster PAYG scheme already, it was
all sorted out a week or two after the start of LO services.


Yes, but Watford Junction is still more expensive than Watford Met.
Peak Oyster single fare from Watford Junction to Zone 1 is £6.50, from
(unless you change oyster cards at Harrow and Wealdstone in which case
it's 30p cheaper although unless there's an on platform oyster reader
it's not going to be feasible to do without waiting for another train
unless you get a mate to hold the doors open while you run round the
station with his and your cards)


Watford Met is £4.70. Watford Junction is NOT in the travelcard
scheme, tickets are now Watford Junction plus Zones 1-9. One day
Travelcard costs a zones 1-9 (including Watford Met) £9.00, zones
1-9 plus Watford Junction £13.50.

And it's 1:10 WJ-Watford High Street so you have to make five separate
journeys over that bit of the line before the travel card is cheaper
(obviously there are problems with touching in and out on the
"extension")

Hmmm, don't know if it's still the case but before I had an oyster card
the ticket was effectively a return to boundary Z6 + all zones travel
card so once you'd returned to WJ you lost the ticket. If it's now a
return to boundary Z9(8?) then that seems very unfair, particularly as an
oyster user could do Watford High Street to Euston via Watford Junction
and stay in the Z1-9 cap.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/