In message , Paul Weaver
writes

Looking at the history of the tube, the vast majority of it was built
between 1890 and the first world war.

Actually, comparatively little of today's tube network had been built by
then.

Obviously this was all entrepreneurs, capitalists that produced the
finest public transport system of its day.

On the contrary, limited capacity and over-crowding was a problem from
the outset, and private capital was insufficient to finance the
expansion needed. Even after the formation of LUR the company was
straddled with debt and couldn't pay a dividend on ordinary shares for
year after year after year - nationalisation came as a blessed relief.
It was not until the New Works programme of the 1930s that more
ambitious schemes could be financed.

Whats happened since the end of the second world war? Nothing.

Erm ...

Central line extended from Liverpool Street out to Epping/Ongar +
Hainault loop
Central line extended from North Acton to Ruislip
Victoria line constructed
Piccadilly line extended from Hounslow to Heathrow
Jubilee line - new construction from Baker Street to Stratford
plus, of course, the Docklands Light Railway network.

--
Paul Terry

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Paul Terry
), in message
who said:
In message , Paul Weaver
writes

Looking at the history of the tube, the vast majority of it was built
between 1890 and the first world war.

Actually, comparatively little of today's tube network had been built
by then.


Hmm... if one includes all the bits that already existed under alternate
ownership, I'd guess that around two thirds of the current network was
already in place in 1914.


Obviously this was all entrepreneurs, capitalists that produced the
finest public transport system of its day.

On the contrary, limited capacity and over-crowding was a problem from
the outset, and private capital was insufficient to finance the
expansion needed. Even after the formation of LUR the company was
straddled with debt and couldn't pay a dividend on ordinary shares for
year after year after year - nationalisation came as a blessed relief.
It was not until the New Works programme of the 1930s that more
ambitious schemes could be financed.

Whats happened since the end of the second world war? Nothing.

Erm ...

Central line extended from Liverpool Street out to Epping/Ongar +
Hainault loop
Central line extended from North Acton to Ruislip
Victoria line constructed
Piccadilly line extended from Hounslow to Heathrow
Jubilee line - new construction from Baker Street to Stratford
plus, of course, the Docklands Light Railway network.


Of these, the only achievements of any great geographical scope were the
Vic, and the Jubilee extension.

BTN

In article ,
(Ben Nunn) wrote:

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Paul Terry
), in message
who said:
In message , Paul Weaver
writes

Looking at the history of the tube, the vast majority of it was built
between 1890 and the first world war.

Actually, comparatively little of today's tube network had been built
by then.

Hmm... if one includes all the bits that already existed under alternate
ownership, I'd guess that around two thirds of the current network was
already in place in 1914.

Not by route mileage. The 1914 tube network was a tiny fraction of today's
tubes. The surface (Circle/District/Hammersmith & City/Metropolitan/East
London) network was more of less complete by then, though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Colin Rosenstiel
), in message
who said:

In message , Paul
Weaver writes

Looking at the history of the tube, the vast majority of it was
built between 1890 and the first world war.

Actually, comparatively little of today's tube network had been
built by then.

Hmm... if one includes all the bits that already existed under
alternate ownership, I'd guess that around two thirds of the current
network was already in place in 1914.

Not by route mileage. The 1914 tube network was a tiny fraction of
today's tubes. The surface (Circle/District/Hammersmith &
City/Metropolitan/East London) network was more of less complete by
then, though.


Depends what you're counting as the 'network'. When talking about transport
policy and expansion plans, any technical distinction between different
types of line is largely irrelevant. Passengers getting a train service is
what matters, whether it's deep-level, cut and cover or overground.

But even it you're talking exclusively about tube tunnels - e.g. excluding
all cut and cover tunnels and overground running, it's still a lot more than
a 'tiny fraction'.

From memory, so might be slightly wrong, but it's roughly like this:

pre-1914:

Clapham Common-Archway
Golders Green-Charing X
Paddington-Elephant
Liverpool St-Wood Lane
Finsbury Park-Barons Court
Holborn-Aldwych
Waterloo-Bank
Finsbury Park-Moorgate


post-1914:

Finchley Road-Stratford
Brixton-Walthamstow Central
Clapham Common-Morden
Embankment-Kennington
Paddington-Queens Park
Finsbury Park-Arnos Grove
Liverpool St-Stratford
little bits of tunnel at Southgate, Hendon and Heathrow
a bit of Leytonstone-Newbury Park
little bit of DLR

BTN

In article ,
(Ben Nunn) wrote:

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Colin Rosenstiel
), in message
who said:

In message , Paul
Weaver writes

Looking at the history of the tube, the vast majority of it was
built between 1890 and the first world war.

Actually, comparatively little of today's tube network had been
built by then.

Hmm... if one includes all the bits that already existed under
alternate ownership, I'd guess that around two thirds of the current
network was already in place in 1914.

Not by route mileage. The 1914 tube network was a tiny fraction of
today's tubes. The surface (Circle/District/Hammersmith &
City/Metropolitan/East London) network was more of less complete by
then, though.


Depends what you're counting as the 'network'. When talking about
transport policy and expansion plans, any technical distinction between
different types of line is largely irrelevant. Passengers getting a
train service is what matters, whether it's deep-level, cut and cover or
overground.

But even it you're talking exclusively about tube tunnels - e.g.
excluding all cut and cover tunnels and overground running, it's still a
lot more than a 'tiny fraction'.

From memory, so might be slightly wrong, but it's roughly like this:

pre-1914:

Clapham Common-Archway
Golders Green-Charing X
Paddington-Elephant
Liverpool St-Wood Lane
Finsbury Park-Barons Court
Holborn-Aldwych
Waterloo-Bank
Finsbury Park-Moorgate


post-1914:

Finchley Road-Stratford
Brixton-Walthamstow Central
Clapham Common-Morden
Embankment-Kennington
Paddington-Queens Park
Finsbury Park-Arnos Grove
Liverpool St-Stratford
little bits of tunnel at Southgate, Hendon and Heathrow
a bit of Leytonstone-Newbury Park
little bit of DLR

I was talking about the lines. The surface lines were built for steam
and pretty complete before electrification 100 years ago. The tubes were
all-electric from the start but very limited until after WWI. Look at the
pre-1930s Piccadilly and after its extensions. It was hugely expanded.
Similarly the Northern from 1926.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Colin Rosenstiel
), in message
who said:

post-1914:

Finchley Road-Stratford
Brixton-Walthamstow Central
Clapham Common-Morden
Embankment-Kennington
Paddington-Queens Park
Finsbury Park-Arnos Grove
Liverpool St-Stratford
little bits of tunnel at Southgate, Hendon and Heathrow
a bit of Leytonstone-Newbury Park
little bit of DLR

I was talking about the lines. The surface lines were built for steam
and pretty complete before electrification 100 years ago. The tubes
were all-electric from the start but very limited until after WWI.
Look at the pre-1930s Piccadilly and after its extensions. It was
hugely expanded. Similarly the Northern from 1926.


But a large part of the Piccadilly 'expansion' was over existing
met/district lines that were already in place, the only genuinely new bits
were Finsbury Park to Cockfosters and the Heathrow Extension. All the
additional route miles gained from Earls Court to Hounslow and Uxbridge were
already built, and therefore the credit for their existence does not lie
with London Transport.

Simliarly the Northern line to High Barnet and MHE, which simply runs over
former GNR (or whatever) tracks.

BTN