On Apr 21, 9:42*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

Zen83237 wrote:
Nothing about the strike. What are the RMT whinging about now?

Brother Crow wants Correct Side Door Enable kit installed on the
Victoria Line, after an alleged 18 incidents of Train Operators opening
the doors on the non-platform side in the past four years.

It is left as an exercise for the reader as to whether:

a) Brother Crow's members should take responsibility for their actions,
rather than relying on (yet more) mods to the fleet and infrastructure
and blaming LU management for their mistakes.

Which is inevitably what the public at large are going to think - it's
certainly what I thought on first hearing about this, and indeed what
I still think (though I realise that there is of course more to it
than meets the eye, as always). This strike is hardly going to win
anyone over - quite the opposite, it'll just make people more hostile
to the RMT.


b) Brother Crow and his members realise that they're getting a brand new
fleet of trains in the near future, presumably with CSDE fitted.


Of course the RMT are well aware of point (b). They're just using this
issue to kick up a fuss. As this BBC News online story makes clear,
fitting CSDE to the old trains at this stage would be totally absurd:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8011617.stm

---/quote---
"A statement from TfL said: "London Underground has responded to each
of the RMT's issues, which should be resolved through the procedures
agreed with unions and without disruption to passengers.

"Correct side door enabling equipment is in place on the new Victoria
line trains which will come into service in the next year.

"To retrofit the equipment in the existing trains would be hugely
expensive and would take longer than the introduction of the new
trains."
---/quote---


However if you read the whole story you'll see that "General secretary
Bob Crow also accused the management of 'a culture of bullying and
harassment' of union members on the Victoria Line". This in and of
itself doesn't provide much insight - however, I found the thread
concerning the strike on the District Dave forum (frequented by a
number of LU operating staff amongst others) quite instructive - see:
http://districtdave.proboards.com/in...thread=107 13

There is some suggestion on that thread that the real issue here is
that LU now take a far harder line on train operators who mess up than
they used to - so whilst opening the doors on the wrong side in the
past may have previously been viewed as a lesser transgression, these
days it is treated far more seriously with harsher disciplinaries
(even with the threat of the sack lurking in the background).

So as one poster there says it is not the risk that has changed, more
how LU deals with such incidents. I dare say this may be at the root
of the matter, but then again not having any insider take on
proceedings who am I to know!

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:29:27 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
than meets the eye, as always). This strike is hardly going to win
anyone over - quite the opposite, it'll just make people more hostile
to the RMT.

I think the london public dismissed the RMT as a bunch of unreconstructed
bolshevik troublemakers years ago. I doubt the general opinion could drop
much further. More fool LUL and LT for not nipping them in the bud years
ago instead of always caving in to some or all of their demands. A few
weeks of mass walkouts and trouble would have been preferable to endless
minor and not so minor strikes over the decades.

There is some suggestion on that thread that the real issue here is
that LU now take a far harder line on train operators who mess up than
they used to - so whilst opening the doors on the wrong side in the
past may have previously been viewed as a lesser transgression, these
days it is treated far more seriously with harsher disciplinaries
(even with the threat of the sack lurking in the background).

If someone doesn't know which side the platform is on then perhaps they're
not the right sort of person to drive a train. Its not as if they're
prevented from looking out their cab windows!

B2003

On Apr 22, 12:38*pm, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:29:27 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
than meets the eye, as always). This strike is hardly going to win
anyone over - quite the opposite, it'll just make people more hostile
to the RMT.

I think the london public dismissed the RMT as a bunch of unreconstructed
bolshevik troublemakers years ago. I doubt the general opinion could drop
much further. More fool LUL and LT for not nipping them in the bud years
ago instead of always caving in to some or all of their demands. A few
weeks of mass walkouts and trouble would have been preferable to endless
minor and not so minor strikes over the decades.

You think a big showdown might have worked? Interesting. If so then
any reason to suggest why it wouldn't work now?


There is some suggestion on that thread that the real issue here is
that LU now take a far harder line on train operators who mess up than
they used to - so whilst opening the doors on the wrong side in the
past may have previously been viewed as a lesser transgression, these
days it is treated far more seriously with harsher disciplinaries
(even with the threat of the sack lurking in the background).

If someone doesn't know which side the platform is on then perhaps they're
not the right sort of person to drive a train. Its not as if they're
prevented from looking out their cab windows!

That's similar to my initial thoughts. However, being generous, I can
imagine the potentially disorientating effect of operating a train in
a tunnel for lengthy periods of time, and the danger of going into
'auto-pilot' especially when the platforms are for the most part on
one side of the train.

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 05:02:16 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
You think a big showdown might have worked? Interesting. If so then
any reason to suggest why it wouldn't work now?

Worked with the miners. A few months of trouble prevented us having power
cuts throughout the 80s like the *******s inflicted on us in the years
prior to the strike.

It might work now but it would be a lot harder because the RMT are probably
so used to getting their own way and so confident in their own ability to
arm twist that my guess is they'd take it all the way instead of backing
down and also they'd run sobbing to the media about how nasty LU is causing
everyone so much hassle by not giving in to their demands. And the broadcast
media generally being a load of left wing teapots and naturally sympathetic to
anyone sticking it to the man would probably let that claim pass without too
much scrutiny.

That's similar to my initial thoughts. However, being generous, I can
imagine the potentially disorientating effect of operating a train in
a tunnel for lengthy periods of time, and the danger of going into
'auto-pilot' especially when the platforms are for the most part on
one side of the train.

I suppose, but IMO if you're awake enough to open the doors in the first
place you should be awake enough to know where the platform is.

B2003

On Apr 22, 2:02�pm, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 05:02:16 -0700 (PDT)

Mizter T wrote:
You think a big showdown might have worked? Interesting. If so then
any reason to suggest why it wouldn't work now?

Worked with the miners. A few months of trouble prevented us having power
cuts throughout the 80s like the *******s inflicted on us in the years
prior to the strike.

It might work now but it would be a lot harder because the RMT are probably
so used to getting their own way and so confident in their own ability to
arm twist that my guess is they'd take it all the way instead of backing
down and also they'd run sobbing to the media about how nasty LU is causing
everyone so much hassle by not giving in to their demands. And the broadcast
media generally being a load of left wing teapots and naturally sympathetic to
anyone sticking it to the man would probably let that claim pass without too
much scrutiny.

That's similar to my initial thoughts. However, being generous, I can
imagine the potentially disorientating effect of operating a train in
a tunnel for lengthy periods of time, and the danger of going into
'auto-pilot' especially when the platforms are for the most part on
one side of the train.

I suppose, but IMO if you're awake enough to open the doors in the first
place you should be awake enough to know where the platform is.

B2003

It really does beggar belief that ANYONE could regard a train driver
opening the doors on the wrong side at a station (or in between
stations or whatever) as being anything other than in gross
dereliction of duty and liable to instant dismissal, in the same way
that a bus driver who drove the wrong way up a dual carriageway
because he was too bone idle to check the direction of traffic flow
would (hopefully) inevitably find himself!

That Brother Crow has the gall to make an issue of this shows that he
has no confidence in his members' ability to do what they are paid so
handsomely to do (i.e. drive a train and open the doors at the correct
places). If that is the sort of people that L.U.L. is employing to
drive trains, then the sooner the entire system is automated and
driverless the better!

Marc.

On Apr 22, 6:54�pm, " wrote:
On Apr 22, 2:02 pm, wrote:





On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 05:02:16 -0700 (PDT)

Mizter T wrote:
You think a big showdown might have worked? Interesting. If so then
any reason to suggest why it wouldn't work now?

Worked with the miners. A few months of trouble prevented us having power
cuts throughout the 80s like the *******s inflicted on us in the years
prior to the strike.

It might work now but it would be a lot harder because the RMT are probably
so used to getting their own way and so confident in their own ability to
arm twist that my guess is they'd take it all the way instead of backing
down and also they'd run sobbing to the media about how nasty LU is causing
everyone so much hassle by not giving in to their demands. And the broadcast
media generally being a load of left wing teapots and naturally sympathetic to
anyone sticking it to the man would probably let that claim pass without too
much scrutiny.

That's similar to my initial thoughts. However, being generous, I can
imagine the potentially disorientating effect of operating a train in
a tunnel for lengthy periods of time, and the danger of going into
'auto-pilot' especially when the platforms are for the most part on
one side of the train.

I suppose, but IMO if you're awake enough to open the doors in the first
place you should be awake enough to know where the platform is.

B2003

It really does beggar belief that ANYONE could regard a train driver
opening the doors on the wrong side at a station (or in between
stations or whatever) as being anything other than in gross
dereliction of duty and liable to instant dismissal, in the same way
that a bus driver who drove the wrong way up a dual carriageway
because he was too bone idle to check the direction of traffic flow
would (hopefully) inevitably find himself!

That Brother Crow has the gall to make an issue of this shows that he
has no confidence in his members' ability to do what they are paid so
handsomely to do (i.e. drive a train and open the doors at the correct
places). If that is the sort of people that L.U.L. is employing to
drive trains, then the sooner the entire system is automated and
driverless the better!

Marc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, I thought that the Victoria Line WAS already automated, and
that the driver simply presses a button when the train is ready to
depart and everything else - acceleration/deceleration and presumably
door-opening is automated. What's Crow worried about - that his
incompetent members might override that and deliberately open doors on
the wrong side?!

Marc.

On Apr 22, 6:57*pm, " wrote:

On Apr 22, 6:54 pm, " wrote:

On Apr 22, 2:02 pm, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 05:02:16 -0700 (PDT)

Mizter T wrote:
You think a big showdown might have worked? Interesting. If so then
any reason to suggest why it wouldn't work now?

Worked with the miners. A few months of trouble prevented us having power
cuts throughout the 80s like the *******s inflicted on us in the years
prior to the strike.

It might work now but it would be a lot harder because the RMT are probably
so used to getting their own way and so confident in their own ability to
arm twist that my guess is they'd take it all the way instead of backing
down and also they'd run sobbing to the media about how nasty LU is causing
everyone so much hassle by not giving in to their demands. And the broadcast
media generally being a load of left wing teapots and naturally sympathetic to
anyone sticking it to the man would probably let that claim pass without too
much scrutiny.

That's similar to my initial thoughts. However, being generous, I can
imagine the potentially disorientating effect of operating a train in
a tunnel for lengthy periods of time, and the danger of going into
'auto-pilot' especially when the platforms are for the most part on
one side of the train.

I suppose, but IMO if you're awake enough to open the doors in the first
place you should be awake enough to know where the platform is.

B2003

It really does beggar belief that ANYONE could regard a train driver
opening the doors on the wrong side at a station (or in between
stations or whatever) as being anything other than in gross
dereliction of duty and liable to instant dismissal, in the same way
that a bus driver who drove the wrong way up a dual carriageway
because he was too bone idle to check the direction of traffic flow
would (hopefully) inevitably find himself!

That Brother Crow has the gall to make an issue of this shows that he
has no confidence in his members' ability to do what they are paid so
handsomely to do (i.e. drive a train and open the doors at the correct
places). If that is the sort of people that L.U.L. is employing to
drive trains, then the sooner the entire system is automated and
driverless the better!

Marc.

Actually, I thought that the Victoria Line WAS already automated, and
that the driver simply presses a button when the train is ready to
depart and everything else - acceleration/deceleration and presumably
door-opening is automated. What's Crow worried about - that his
incompetent members might override that and deliberately open doors on
the wrong side?!

Marc.

Why worry about finding out the facts when you can just have a rant eh?

On Apr 22, 6:57*pm, " wrote:
On Apr 22, 6:54 pm, " wrote:





On Apr 22, 2:02 pm, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 05:02:16 -0700 (PDT)

Mizter T wrote:
You think a big showdown might have worked? Interesting. If so then
any reason to suggest why it wouldn't work now?

Worked with the miners. A few months of trouble prevented us having power
cuts throughout the 80s like the *******s inflicted on us in the years
prior to the strike.

It might work now but it would be a lot harder because the RMT are probably
so used to getting their own way and so confident in their own ability to
arm twist that my guess is they'd take it all the way instead of backing
down and also they'd run sobbing to the media about how nasty LU is causing
everyone so much hassle by not giving in to their demands. And the broadcast
media generally being a load of left wing teapots and naturally sympathetic to
anyone sticking it to the man would probably let that claim pass without too
much scrutiny.

That's similar to my initial thoughts. However, being generous, I can
imagine the potentially disorientating effect of operating a train in
a tunnel for lengthy periods of time, and the danger of going into
'auto-pilot' especially when the platforms are for the most part on
one side of the train.

I suppose, but IMO if you're awake enough to open the doors in the first
place you should be awake enough to know where the platform is.

B2003

It really does beggar belief that ANYONE could regard a train driver
opening the doors on the wrong side at a station (or in between
stations or whatever) as being anything other than in gross
dereliction of duty and liable to instant dismissal, in the same way
that a bus driver who drove the wrong way up a dual carriageway
because he was too bone idle to check the direction of traffic flow
would (hopefully) inevitably find himself!

That Brother Crow has the gall to make an issue of this shows that he
has no confidence in his members' ability to do what they are paid so
handsomely to do (i.e. drive a train and open the doors at the correct
places). If that is the sort of people that L.U.L. is employing to
drive trains, then the sooner the entire system is automated and
driverless the better!

Marc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, I thought that the Victoria Line WAS already automated, and
that the driver simply presses a button when the train is ready to
depart and everything else - acceleration/deceleration and presumably
door-opening is automated. What's Crow worried about - that his
incompetent members might override that and deliberately open doors on
the wrong side?!


No, they have to open and close the doors. This is 1960s ATO, not the
DLR.

The Victoria Line has the tracks crossed at some stations, resulting
in the platform not being on the same side as at nearly every other
station on a very boring and similar-looking line. This may have
something to do with the problem.

It probably doesn't take long to notice having reached for the wrong
button and immediately close the doors before they've gone far.

On 22 Apr, 14:02, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 05:02:16 -0700 (PDT)

Mizter T wrote:
You think a big showdown might have worked? Interesting. If so then
any reason to suggest why it wouldn't work now?

Worked with the miners. A few months of trouble prevented us having power
cuts throughout the 80s like the *******s inflicted on us in the years
prior to the strike.

It might work now but it would be a lot harder because the RMT are probably
so used to getting their own way and so confident in their own ability to
arm twist that my guess is they'd take it all the way instead of backing
down and also they'd run sobbing to the media about how nasty LU is causing
everyone so much hassle by not giving in to their demands. And the broadcast
media generally being a load of left wing teapots and naturally sympathetic to
anyone sticking it to the man would probably let that claim pass without too
much scrutiny.

That's similar to my initial thoughts. However, being generous, I can
imagine the potentially disorientating effect of operating a train in
a tunnel for lengthy periods of time, and the danger of going into
'auto-pilot' especially when the platforms are for the most part on
one side of the train.

I suppose, but IMO if you're awake enough to open the doors in the first
place you should be awake enough to know where the platform is.

B2003

The media sympathetic to the RMT? Which media is this?

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 01:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
Railist wrote:
The media sympathetic to the RMT? Which media is this?

I've noticed when crowe or one of his tovarishi comes on TV they're
generally seem to get long enough to give an indexed list of grievances
with time for a good whinge to boot. When someone from LU management comes
on they get a 30 second slot outside St James Park.

B2003