OK, haven't been on UTL for years but this is the kind of discussion
that you like, and I cannot really work out what to do!!

The facts:

(1) I live in Zone 2 and work in Zone 1.
(2) I have a Zones 1 and 2 annual travelcard, expiring 30 December
2009, which cost me £968 (Work loaned me the money for it, and I am
paying them back monthly out of my salary).
(3) From 8 May until 27 July I am going to be living 1 minute from
Bowes Park station, British Rail, Zone 3.
(4) There is a tube station about 5 minutes away (Bounds Green, Zone
3). However, since I work in Moorgate, if I happen to time it right, I
will be more likely to take the train from Bowes Park which goes
direct to Moorgate, and will only take tube when I miss the train or
there is a problem on the line. Coming back is a different matter, as
if I am out in Central London after work, I'll almost certainly get
the tube to Bounds Green.

Annoyingly, Bowes Park is one of "those" stations that don't have
barriers, and I cannot simply put £20 pre-pay on top of my Yearly
season ticket on the Oystercard, for those moments when I go out of
Zone.

What do I do?

Option 1:
Cancel my Annual ticket, get two monthly and two weekly season tickets
for zones 123, then start a new Annual ticket on 28 July. Not what I
want to do as that annual ticket will then cost £1032 AND furthermore
work don't permit more than one season ticket loan per year, meaning
that I'd have to self-finance this one. It would be too much hassle.
Furthermore, for those 2 and a half months I'd have to give up my Gold
Annual card, which has given me tasty savings on some rail journeys
for both me and for my travelling companions around the South Coast.
And with sunny weather and Brighton beckoning, those journeys seem
more likely than ever.

Option 2:
Buy an extension every day. Major hassle, especially as I don't always
know whether I'm going to go by tube or train, especially with the
evening service from Moorgate to Bowes Park being so infrequent (just
two an hour). On the one day I tried it (I was travelling Moorgate-
Bowes Park-Moorgate last week to view the place), I bought an off-peak
journey extension return for £1.80 from Moorgate, then when I got back
there were problems on the line and I walked to Bounds Green and I
guess money will have come out of my top-up on my Oystercard because I
didn't even bother arguing with the ticket people in Bounds Green to
ask them whether they'd allow me to use the return portion of the rail
ticket on the tube, because of the delays on the train, because I
imagine that the delays would have to be much more severe for TfL to
give the go-ahead for that, and there was no announcement (it was only
a delay of 15 minutes, PLUS the fact that it was 20 minutes for the
next train, so I preferred to walk to Bounds Green instead rather than
hang around for 35 minutes for a train... and in any case, I wanted to
end up that night in central London anyway, so made sense. I guess I
*could* have asked them, but just couldn't be bothered.

Option 3:
Buy a separate Zones 3-4 monthly season ticket for two months, and two
weekly ones, at a combined cost of £160.80. Firstly, I never go into
zone 4, I don't even know what stations are out there any more. And
£160.80 is a terrible waste of money. That, plus the £969 I've already
paid for Z12 for the whole year, comes to £1128.80. I may as well have
got a Z123 yearly back in December last year!! Why can TfL not issue
a Zone 3 monthly season ticket only, at a reduced price?

It is particularly expensive when you consider that, by this year's
prices, the difference between a Z12 monthly and a Z123 monthly is
just £16.90.

If I were to go down Option 3, I'd have the option of either buying
Z34 on a separate Oyster card, or having it as a separate option on my
same card (or so I'm led to believe). Both are frought with problems.
Option 3a:
Two separate Oyster cards? Which would also mean that I'd end up with
daily "unfinished" journeys originating in Zone 3, and daily
"unfinished" journeys originating in Zone 1, and I can just see the
barriers eventually going mental and not letting me though and I have
to clear it every time to the inspectors and explain this complicated
arrangement.
Furthermore, I'd need to remember which blue plastic card is the one I
use in the morning, and which one is one I use in the evening. And I
know that, after a few drinks especially, I'll end up touching out at
Bounds Green with my Z12 travelcard, and lose an unnecessary pound or
so from my emergency prepay top-up, whilst having a valid Z34
travelcard in the other pocket. And then trying to claim it back, oh
god....

Option 3b:
Have them both on the same card? Yes, I believe they can do this,
HOWEVER when you touch in at Moorgate and then touch out at Bounds
Green, will it really know that you are using Z12 for touching in and
Z34 for touching out, or will it use Z12 for touching in and my
emergency prepay topup for touching out? I wouldn't like to put it to
the test. I don't think the system is that clever.

Option 4. Is there one? Is it possible, for example, to pay £16.90
every month (which is the difference between a Z12 and Z123 monthly)
and somehow make the system accept my Oystercard, for 1 month at a
time, as working in Zone 3, both at tube stations and at non-barriered
rail stations?

If there is this magic Option 4, for which I have not had much luck in
finding information about on the various official websites, then that
would be wonderful. If not, then any advice would be very much
appreciated.

Thanks

Tristán (formerly, very much a UTL regular!)
PS don't reply to email, I never check it as I use it ONLY for Usenet
posting and for forum membership authentication, and hence it's just
full of spam. :-)

Isn't the best thing to buy a season ticket from Bowes Park to
Finsbury Park (after which your Zone 1&2 travelcard will take over)?
Don't know how much this could be. You could then use the season
ticket when you take the train, and your Oyster top up when you take
the tube.

Cash in the Z1-2 ticket (~£650), buy an annual Z1-3 (£1208), cash it
in August (~£900), buy a new Z1-2 (£1028), cash it in in January (~
£600). Get the timing right and the net outlay by you is well under
£100 and you don't lose your Gold Card benefits. Obviously it requires
you to have some spare cash available.

Alternatively, the suggestion of a Bowes Park-Finsbury Park rail
season ticket is a good one (£46.90/month or £114.60 pro rata -
remember you can buy arbitrary length season tickets and Travelcards
at the monthly rate).

U

wrote:
OK, haven't been on UTL for years but this is the kind of discussion
that you like, and I cannot really work out what to do!!

The facts:

(1) I live in Zone 2 and work in Zone 1.
(2) I have a Zones 1 and 2 annual travelcard, expiring 30 December
2009, which cost me £968 (Work loaned me the money for it, and I am
paying them back monthly out of my salary).
(3) From 8 May until 27 July I am going to be living 1 minute from
Bowes Park station, British Rail, Zone 3.
(4) There is a tube station about 5 minutes away (Bounds Green, Zone
3). However, since I work in Moorgate, if I happen to time it right, I
will be more likely to take the train from Bowes Park which goes
direct to Moorgate, and will only take tube when I miss the train or
there is a problem on the line. Coming back is a different matter, as
if I am out in Central London after work, I'll almost certainly get
the tube to Bounds Green.

snip

Option 4. Is there one? Is it possible, for example, to pay £16.90
every month (which is the difference between a Z12 and Z123 monthly)
and somehow make the system accept my Oystercard, for 1 month at a
time, as working in Zone 3, both at tube stations and at non-barriered
rail stations?

Option 4: Request a changeover for the original ticket to one for the
new journey. This would be calculated on the difference in fares, based
on the original price at the time you bought it. You can then change it
back again at a later date if you need to. The new ticket would also
expire on the 30th of December.

Note that, ideally, this should be done at the original issuing location.

A (not so) quick calculation is as follows:

Original Ticket: 31st December 2008 - 30th December 2009 - Price: £968

Assuming that no passenger's charter discount and no "void days" apply
on the existing ticket, the "base rate" is calculated as £968 / 365
days, giving a rate of £2.65 per day.

An Annual Zones 1 to 3 Travelcard issued at the same time would have
been £1136 (£28.20 per week x 40 weeks).

This works out at a base rate of £1136 / 365 days, giving £3.11 per day.

Assuming you start the new ticket on 8th May, that will be valid for 237
days.

Credit for old ticket: £2.65 x 237 days = £ 628.05
Charge for new ticket: £3.11 x 237 days = £ 737.07

Difference to pay = £ 109.02

If you then change back to Zones 1 and 2 only from 28th July:

Number of days validity: 156 days

Credit for old ticket: £3.11 x 156 days = £ 485.16
Charge for new ticket: £2.65 x 156 days = £ 413.40

Refund due = £ 71.76

Giving a net amount paid for the changeover of £37.26, which is just
over the price of a *7 day* Zones 1 to 4 Travelcard!

HTH,

Barry

On Apr 23, 12:44*pm, wrote:
OK, haven't been on UTL for years but this is the kind of discussion
that you like, and I cannot really work out what to do!!

The facts:

(1) I live in Zone 2 and work in Zone 1.
(2) I have a Zones 1 and 2 annual travelcard, expiring 30 December
2009, which cost me £968 *(Work loaned me the money for it, and I am
paying them back monthly out of my salary).
(3) From 8 May until 27 July I am going to be living 1 minute from
Bowes Park station, British Rail, Zone 3.
(4) There is a tube station about 5 minutes away (Bounds Green, Zone
3). However, since I work in Moorgate, if I happen to time it right, I
will be more likely to take the train from Bowes Park which goes
direct to Moorgate, and will only take tube when I miss the train or
there is a problem on the line. Coming back is a different matter, as
if I am out in Central London after work, I'll almost certainly get
the tube to Bounds Green.

Annoyingly, Bowes Park is one of "those" stations that don't have
barriers, and I cannot simply put £20 pre-pay on top of my Yearly
season ticket on the Oystercard, for those moments when I go out of
Zone.

Even if a station has barriers, it does not entail that Oyster PAYG is
accepted there. At present, Oyster PAYG is not accepted north of
Finsbury Park on the Great Northern lines.

See this page, and specifically the PDF map it links to which shows
where Oyster PAYG is valid on National Rail:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

Maybe, just maybe, Oyster PAYG will be accepted across National Rail
in London by the end of the year, possibly even earlier - I recall
September being mentioned. Of course that doesn't help you one bit!


What do I do?

Option 1:
Cancel my Annual ticket, get two monthly and two weekly season tickets
for zones 123, then start a new Annual ticket on 28 July. Not what I
want to do as that annual ticket will then cost £1032 AND furthermore
work don't permit more than one season ticket loan per year, meaning
that I'd have to self-finance this one. It would be too much hassle.
Furthermore, for those 2 and a half months I'd have to give up my Gold
Annual card, which has given me tasty savings on some rail journeys
for both me and for my travelling companions around the South Coast.
And with sunny weather and Brighton beckoning, those journeys seem
more likely than ever.

No sunny Southend for you then?!


Option 2:
Buy an extension every day. Major hassle, especially as I don't always
know whether I'm going to go by tube or train, especially with the
evening service from Moorgate to Bowes Park being so infrequent (just
two an hour). On the one day I tried it (I was travelling Moorgate-
Bowes Park-Moorgate last week to view the place), I bought an off-peak
journey extension return for £1.80 from Moorgate, then when I got back
there were problems on the line and I walked to Bounds Green and I
guess money will have come out of my top-up on my Oystercard because I
didn't even bother arguing with the ticket people in Bounds Green to
ask them whether they'd allow me to use the return portion of the rail
ticket on the tube, because of the delays on the train, because I
imagine that the delays would have to be much more severe for TfL to
give the go-ahead for that, and there was no announcement (it was only
a delay of 15 minutes, PLUS the fact that it was 20 minutes for the
next train, so I preferred to walk to Bounds Green instead rather than
hang around for 35 minutes for a train... and in any case, I wanted to
end up that night in central London anyway, so made sense. I guess I
*could* have asked them, but just couldn't be bothered.

I very much doubt that LU would have been accepting National Rail
tickets for what would in all likelihood have been viewed as a
'routine delay' (or some such!) on the mainline railways.


Option 3:
Buy a separate Zones 3-4 monthly season ticket for two months, and two
weekly ones, at a combined cost of £160.80. Firstly, I never go into
zone 4, I don't even know what stations are out there any more. And
£160.80 is a terrible waste of money. That, plus the £969 I've already
paid for Z12 for the whole year, comes to £1128.80. I may as well have
got a Z123 yearly back in December last year!! *Why can TfL not issue
a Zone 3 monthly season ticket only, at a reduced price?

Single zone seasons were withdrawn three or four years back. There
would have been logical reasons for this... but I can't be bothered to
second-guess them now!


It is particularly expensive when you consider that, by this year's
prices, the difference between a Z12 monthly and a Z123 monthly is
just £16.90.

If I were to go down Option 3, I'd have the option of either buying
Z34 on a separate Oyster card, or having it as a separate option on my
same card (or so I'm led to believe). Both are frought with problems.
Option 3a:
Two separate Oyster cards? Which would also mean that I'd end up with
daily "unfinished" journeys originating in Zone 3, and daily
"unfinished" journeys originating in Zone 1, and I can just see the
barriers eventually going mental and not letting me though and I have
to clear it every time to the inspectors and explain this complicated
arrangement.
Furthermore, I'd need to remember which blue plastic card is the one I
use in the morning, and which one is one I use in the evening. And I
know that, after a few drinks especially, I'll end up touching out at
Bounds Green with my Z12 travelcard, and lose an unnecessary pound or
so from my emergency prepay top-up, whilst having a valid Z34
travelcard in the other pocket. And then trying to claim it back, oh
god....

Two separate cards would be unnecessary.

However, as things are currently set up with Oyster one could use two
separate cards - journeys would be marked as 'unresolved', but this
wouldn't entail a financial penalty so long as you used the correct
card at each end. Indeed, you can legitimately use one Travelcard
loaded on an Oyster along with another Travelcard on paper. If however
you did touch the wrong card on a reader at one end of the journey you
wouldn't really have any recourse to getting a refund - it would after
all be your own fault! Plus they'd suspect you were trying to fiddle
them out of money too!


Option 3b:
Have them both on the same card? Yes, I believe they can do this,
HOWEVER when you touch in at Moorgate and then touch out at Bounds
Green, will it really know that you are using Z12 for touching in and
Z34 for touching out, or will it use Z12 for touching in and my
emergency prepay topup for touching out? I wouldn't like to put it to
the test. I don't think the system is that clever.

It is that clever - I have done just this, I had a zone 1&2 monthly on
my Oyster card and I added a zone 3&4 weekly to it and everything
worked fine.

I admit that I am not entirely convinced about whether TOC RPIs would
comprehend it, and I didn't test it to destruction at National Rail
gatelines either.

Nevertheless it is totally legit - see this TfL FAQ answer:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...entityNum=2210

---quote---
Q: Can I have more than one Travelcard and money to pay as I go on my
Oyster card at the same time?

A: Yes. You may have up to three Travelcards and/or Bus Passes and
money to pay as you go on your Oyster card at the same time.
---/quote---


Option 4. Is there one? Is it possible, for example, to pay £16.90
every month (which is the difference between a Z12 and Z123 monthly)
and somehow make the system accept my Oystercard, for 1 month at a
time, as working in Zone 3, both at tube stations and at non-barriered
rail stations?

If there is this magic Option 4, for which I have not had much luck in
finding information about on the various official websites, then that
would be wonderful. If not, then any advice would be very much
appreciated.

Thanks

Both Mr Thant and Mr Salter are the magicians in this case!


Tristán (formerly, very much a UTL regular!)

I've come across a good number of your posts when searching the
archives - I don't know if you'll think that's good or scary!

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

I've come across a good number of your posts when searching the
archives - I don't know if you'll think that's good or scary!

I know Tristan and I can assure you he is *very* scary! ;-)

Ian

Mr Thant wrote:
Cash in the Z1-2 ticket (~£650), buy an annual Z1-3 (£1208), cash it
in August (~£900), buy a new Z1-2 (£1028), cash it in in January (~
£600). Get the timing right and the net outlay by you is well under
£100 and you don't lose your Gold Card benefits. Obviously it requires
you to have some spare cash available.

Alternatively, the suggestion of a Bowes Park-Finsbury Park rail
season ticket is a good one (£46.90/month or £114.60 pro rata -
remember you can buy arbitrary length season tickets and Travelcards
at the monthly rate).

I'm interested by this suggestion as I'm in a similar situation- annual
Z1-4 on Oyster expiring August, will need zone 5 from June/July. Now I
originally thought I could do what Barry suggests downthread-effectively
adding Z5 for the remaining period. Out of interest I asked at the
Victoria TfL info centre yesterday, and couldn't get a sensible answer
because they were so confused about Oyster season validity on NR
(questions like 'Are you commuting to a Tube or mainline station in Z5?'
Er, it doesn't matter.) But having read this thread, I suppose I could
save quite a bit by going for a Shortlands-Bromley S paper season, and
just moaning every time I have to get it out for the barriers...

--
Current nearest station: Clock House

On Apr 26, 10:39*am, Rupert Candy
wrote:

Mr Thant wrote:
Cash in the Z1-2 ticket (~£650), buy an annual Z1-3 (£1208), cash it
in August (~£900), buy a new Z1-2 (£1028), cash it in in January (~
£600). Get the timing right and the net outlay by you is well under
£100 and you don't lose your Gold Card benefits. Obviously it requires
you to have some spare cash available.

Alternatively, the suggestion of a Bowes Park-Finsbury Park rail
season ticket is a good one (£46.90/month or £114.60 pro rata -
remember you can buy arbitrary length season tickets and Travelcards
at the monthly rate).

I'm interested by this suggestion as I'm in a similar situation- annual
Z1-4 on Oyster expiring August, will need zone 5 from June/July. Now I
originally thought I could do what Barry suggests downthread-effectively
adding Z5 for the remaining period. Out of interest I asked at the
Victoria TfL info centre yesterday, and couldn't get a sensible answer
because they were so confused about Oyster season validity on NR
(questions like 'Are you commuting to a Tube or mainline station in Z5?'
Er, it doesn't matter.) [...]

On first glance that doesn't sound too impressive - however perhaps
they weren't being as daft as you think, because if you were commuting
in on the Tube then you'd be able to use Oyster PAYG to automagically
pay the extension fare for zone 5. I'd think it wouldn't be cheaper
than changing the zones on one's Travelcard season though - each
extension would be £1.10 at today's fares - though that depends on how
long one would be doing it for.

But as you say, it doesn't apply in the case of journeys on most
National Rail routes... yet.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Oyster customer services has a department
that deals with changes to the validity of Travelcards, i.e. an
increase or decrease in the zones covered, so I suspect they're the
best people to go to if you have such a need.

[...] But having read this thread, I suppose I could
save quite a bit by going for a Shortlands-Bromley S paper season, and
just moaning every time I have to get it out for the barriers...

Indeed - forget not the rail-only season ticket! Very useful beasts.

First of all, thanks all of you for your suggestions. Especially Barry
who looks as though he has discovered the most cost-effective. Today
is 8 May and I will be putting it to the test in about an hour. I was
going to do it over the weekend but didn't go out as I was far busier
moving house than I had anticipated!

In the end, I am going to get it starting tomorrow as I have already
paid £3.10 today for a Bowes Green - Finsbury Park return for today.
So by Barry's calculation, the changeover should cost me £105.91, will
be good to see if this happens!

What I find enfuriating is that no one at any ticket office could tell
me this. I knew better and thought about asking on UTL because in the
past I have found people here to be so much more knowledgeable, and
again this has been proven correct. But why are the staff so rubbish
about giving the correct info? Is it their fault, for not reading up
on all the leaflets or paying attention during the training? Is it
the fault of their employers, for not training them adequately? Is it
the fault of TfL for making it all so complicated in the first place?
Humorously, is it the fault of privatisation for creating a system
where there's no joined-up thinking any more and different lines are
owned by different private companies who are after making a profit
rather than giving us a public service? The cynic would also wonder
whether it's an intentional method of making it complicated so that
some people end up buying the more expensive option and then end up
with even more money. In fact, there may be some truth in that. The
only way I see it is, it certainly didn't use to be as bad as this,
and certainly in my parents' day, if they had a query like mine they
would have had more helpful and accurate information.

Well, let's see if they get it right and I am not met with blank
stares in an hour's time when I ask for my Z123 changeover until 30
December, and expect to pay just £105.91 for it.

I bought my Oyster originally in Moorgate, so I don't hold out much
hope after this morning's experience, if that was suggestive of the
(mis)information I am going to get later. I'll explain. This morning I
got to Bowes Park, to get an extension to Z2 (plus, I hoped, with the
discount from having my annual Gold card with me). I was expecting it
to cost £1.15, which is what it cost me the other night to go up
there. He wanted £2.30, which I thought was ridiculous. That's what I
was expecting a return to be. Why, I asked? The guy this morning (who
was also really unpleasant in attitude) said it was because you only
get a discount with the Gold card if it's off-peak. Huh? The time had
just gone 09:30, the next train was not until 09:43. I said it was
after 09:30, he told me that the off-peak period starts at 10 a.m. I
thought this was weird but perhaps this was some kind of policy on
First Capital Connect I was unaware of. But what I couldn't understand
was, even if he was right, if it normally costs £1.15 (and I still
have my old extension from Z2 that I bought from Moorgate station a
few nights before), how could the Gold Card save 50%? Surely the
discount wasn't that good. Anyway, I was really annoyed about having
to pay £2.30 for a single journey that shouldn't cost me more than
£1.15, so I asked how much a return would be for later today. He asked
what time today, I said tonight, he said £3.70, so it would be cheaper
for me to get the extension tonight using my Gold card discount. I
asked him to double-check and then amazingly he said that the return
was in fact £3.10. Which I bought. Still more than I was expecting
but it was just 80p more whereas had I indeed done two separate
journeys it would have been £1.15 more.

The funny thing is, I'm looking at the card and it says on it "off
peak day return". Errm, so it IS off-peak between 9:30 and 10:00 then?
So why could I not get the Gold Card discount?

Then I got to Moorgate. I felt mildly mischevious and, armed with
knowledge garnered on UTL, explained my conundrum to the guy at the
gates in Moorgate. I said I had a Z12 annual, and the paper Return
Bowes Park to Finsbury Park, and was worried whether I would be
charged £4 from my £20 emergency top-up if I touch in at Moorgate and
not started the journey. The guy said that I would, as I had expected
he would. He was a nice chap, but simply misinformed (and misinforming
others): he said that in fact, I should have got off my train in
Finsbury Park, touched in, got back on the train (there's only three
or four an hour, and only two an hour in the evenings, so this would
be most inconvenient), and then I would not be charged £4 for having a
non-started journey. I reminded him that I did have a Z12 annual
season ticket and he said yes, I would be charged £4 from my PAYG top-
up that I also have on there. So he waved me through. He was a nice
chap and wished me luck in trying to make head or tail of it, and
recommended I speak to one of the ticket sellers to find out what I
can do in future journeys. Errm, no, I think I'll ask UTL between you
and me ;-))

But it does go to show the level of (mis)information you can get. So
those who don't know about UTL, what hope do they have, when TfL's own
staff really cannot give the correct answer?? Ouch!

Well, I'm off now to try my luck at Moorgate, which I think is where I
bought my yearly. Thanks Barry for the great advice.

TRISTÁN

On May 11, 6:40*pm, wrote:
First of all, thanks all of you for your suggestions. Especially Barry
who looks as though he has discovered the most cost-effective. Today
is 8 May and I will be putting it to the test in about an hour. I was
SNIP


Sorry, today is 11 May, I want it to be valid from 12 May as I have
paper for today (see earlier post). So hopefully it will cost me even
less!

Credit for old ticket: £2.65 x 233 days = £617.45
Charge for new ticket: £3.11 x 233 days = £724.63
Difference to pay: £107.18

Then as before, if I change back to Z12 only from 28 July, it'll be
156 days validity,

Credit for old ticket: £3.11 x 156 days = £485.16
Charge for new ticket: £2.65 x 156 days = £413.40
Refund due £71.76, in other words the period from 12 May to 27 July
inclusive will have cost me £35.42

Thank you thank you thank you Barry, fingers crossed that I will not
be met with blank looks when I get to Moorgate station in a moment :-)

I'll let you know tomorrow.