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Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On Apr 30, 12:06 pm, "David A Stocks" wrote: "Barry Salter" wrote: As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through. It looks like I might have benefited from this last week. My journey was Brighton to Hanger Lane return, using my NR season as far as CLJ, then Oyster PAYG via Shepherd's Bush. From CLJ: I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34. I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line. I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10. I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly after 13:00. At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of the way along the footbridge when I realised I had forgotten to touch out. I went to platform 17 and touched out there at 13:59. The weird part is that the online journey history only shows the 10:34 entry at CLJ and the 13:59 exit at CLJ, total charge £1.80. I assume that if I had spent longer at Hanger Lane it would have got split into two journeys - but how long? That doesn't make much sense to me at all. The total charge of £1.80 in particular is nonsensical - £1.80 isn't a fare band that currently applies to PAYG journeys at all - see the fares table on page 5 of this PDF: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf You should have been charged £2.20 overall - i.e. 2 x £1.10 fares (there being an out-of-station interchange at Shepherd's Bush). My maths went wrong somewhere ... I was charged £1.10 for a journey from CLJ to CLJ. The online journey history doesn't acknowledge that I ever went near SPB or Hanger Lane. However even if you touched-in/out on a standalone reader, then the time that elapsed between you exiting Hangar Lane and then re-entering the system there (i.e. almost two hours) is simply too long for any such confusion to occur. I went through the *normal* gates at Hanger Lane. I would have thought this should have terminated a journey within quite a short time because there is no possibility of me continuing a journey by some other route from there ... or maybe there is an out of station interchange (Park Royal?) enabled at Hanger Lane. D A Stocks |
Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote: Mizter T wrote: I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where this information came from? One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending on the zones passed through. Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are. I'm sure all will become clear over time. Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual explanation! |
Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:
On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote: Mizter T wrote: I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where this information came from? One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending on the zones passed through. Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are. I'm sure all will become clear over time. Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual explanation! I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". And I still wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker than Mansion House to St James's Park. Because the other discussion of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would apply as well. |
Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
On May 1, 3:42*pm, MIG wrote: On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote: On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote: Mizter T wrote: I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where this information came from? One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending on the zones passed through. Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are. I'm sure all will become clear over time. Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual explanation! I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". [...] In what way? *[...] And I still wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker than Mansion House to St James's Park. [...] I *very* *much* doubt it. I'd imagine that *if* there was to be a shorter journey time allowance the same would apply accross zone 1 - but that is a big *if*... [...] Because the other discussion of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would apply as well. What recent discussion - the recent "Oyster time limit - changed again?" utl thread[1]? If so, then (going by the five posts that currently exist make up that thread) the only suggestion that shorter permissible journey times might apply seems to come from you! *If* (again big *if*) shorter permissible journey times were to be implemented then I doubt it would be anything radical - perhaps all journeys within zone 1 going back to the two hour time limit, something like that. I really don't think people should get worked up about some notion that they're running against the clock on each journey they make, especially when such notions are based on no evidence whatsoever! As can be seen from the generous time allowances that are afforded to passengers making out-of-station interchanges, the system has to be based on people who dawdle (go to the wrong platform, go the wrong way at least for one stop, take a long time climbing the stairs etc etc etc), it can't be based on people who nip around quickly. That's only logical. ----- http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...f45edc0a25169a |
Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
On 1 May, 16:18, Mizter T wrote:
On May 1, 3:42*pm, MIG wrote: On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote: On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote: Mizter T wrote: I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where this information came from? One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending on the zones passed through. Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are. I'm sure all will become clear over time. Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual explanation! I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". [...] In what way? Zones actually passed through are not currently of concern to the system, which calculates fares between points as long as the general timeout hasn't been reached. My understanding was that it doesn't actually know or care what zones you pass through as long as you resolve the journey within the time limit. I would expect it to apply the different time limits similarly based on a fixed value determined for the start and end points of the journey, rather than on zones passed through, which it can't know. (Although there has been discussion of taking into account routes that the system actually has evidence for, ie when you touch along the way.) *[...] And I still wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker than Mansion House to St James's Park. [...] I *very* *much* doubt it. I'd imagine that *if* there was to be a shorter journey time allowance the same would apply accross zone 1 - but that is a big *if*... [...] Because the other discussion of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would apply as well. What recent discussion - the recent "Oyster time limit - changed again?" utl thread[1]? If so, then (going by the five posts that currently exist make up that thread) the only suggestion that shorter permissible journey times might apply seems to come from you! Eh? That thread begain with a link to this http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf were it states that sometimes the time limit will be 70 minutes. I thought it used to be 120 minutes, and later increased to 150. If not, please ignore. But if not wrong,I am wondering if this means that, if one of the named stations is the end point, ALL variable journey times, including shorter ones, will be applied, but that at others they won't be for the time being. *If* (again big *if*) shorter permissible journey times were to be implemented then I doubt it would be anything radical - perhaps all journeys within zone 1 going back to the two hour time limit, something like that. I really don't think people should get worked up about some notion that they're running against the clock on each journey they make, especially when such notions are based on no evidence whatsoever! As can be seen from the generous time allowances that are afforded to passengers making out-of-station interchanges, the system has to be based on people who dawdle (go to the wrong platform, go the wrong way at least for one stop, take a long time climbing the stairs etc etc etc), it can't be based on people who nip around quickly. That's only logical. -----http://groups.google.com/group/uk.transport.london/browse_frm/thread/...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
Mizter T wrote
[snip] I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34. I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line. I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10. I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly after 13:00. At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of [snip] There is indeed an out-of-station interchange configured between Hanger Lane and Park Royal - see the list of OSIs here [1]: http://www.dragondark.co.uk/osi/osi.htm That might sort-of of explains it. However, an OSI is of course for people transferring between stations - logically one would have thought that re-entering the *same* station (especially through the gates, which provide unambiguous entry and exit points to the system) would mean any potential OSI considerations on that card were cancelled and a brand new journey started. Furthermore, the OSI list above (accurate as of November '08) shows that up to 25 minutes is allowed for when transferring between Hangar Lane and Park Royal. The above journey included another OSI, SPB (Shepherds Bush) which is new and which I don't know the allowance for but the weird result may be due to it or to the combination. Has anyone reported on OSI results when re-entering the *same* station, eg at Bow Road ? -- Mike D |
Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message news:01c9cabb$bcb76340$LocalHost@default... The above journey included another OSI, SPB (Shepherds Bush) which is new and which I don't know the allowance for but the weird result may be due to it or to the combination. I was impressed by the interchange with the Central Line, which is easier/better than the National Rail to Underground interchanges at most London termini. However, the OSI at SPB probably allows for people wanting to get at the Hammersmith & City line as well. One can begin to understand some of the concerns the TOCs may have about implementing Oyster on NR. I assume my entry and exit data is stored in a system somewhere, and I can imagine auditors could have a bit of fun reconciling this with the three operators involved for the purposes of revenue allocation ... D A Stocks |
Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:
One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending on the zones passed through. Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are. Yes, I think that would have to be the case - e.g. so someone exiting at Hanger Lane for an OSI to Park Royal would get the time limit adjusted (presumably adding extra time) for the *whole* journey, not just the first leg. I can't see why else the list would consist mostly of OSI stations. The list also suggests that this will apply to intermediate validators, as it includes stations that have no apparent significance other than being interchanges at the tip of a 'V' (i.e. where you are heading out of the zones and then can turn back so you are heading inwards, or vice versa). This suggests that, for example: - Travellers from Northwood to Heathrow will have to touch inetrmediate validators (on the platform/footbridge) at Rayners Lane and Acton Town, to extend their time limit and so avoid exceeding the maximum time for a Z3456 journey - Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the Z(2)3456 limit - Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit. Similarly for Gospel Oak to Barons Court (Z23, touching at Gunnersbury) and Upper Holloway to Bromley-By-Bow (Z234, touching at Barking). Of course, since the (reduced) variable limits aren't applied at the destination (Bromley-By-Bow in the last example), the time extensions aren't actually required yet - but presumably this is the first phase in a phased introduction. That doesn't explain all of the stations on the list, though - I'm still mystified as to why odd-ones-out like Bond Street are included. Perhaps it's just as a trial as part of the phased introduction. |
Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
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Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
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