Southern are to run a once a (week)day each way service on this route
- via the Latchmere Jn to Factory Jn route (along the Ludgate / City
Lines) - which is a partial replacement of sorts for the now defunct
Crosscountry service that ran from Manchester via Reading along the
WLL to East Croydon and on to Brighton. This is mentioned in new
Southern publicity.

This service will fulfil the requirement to keep this route served by
passenger trains - in other words it'll be a parliamentary train, in
the modern meaning of the phrase. Thus it will replace the so called
'Ghost Bus' rail-replacement bus service between Wandsworth Road and
Kensington Olympia, though the aforementioned bus will have to
continue serving the remainder of the route from Kensington Olympia to
Ealing Broadway so as to (supposedly) 'cover' the other two stretches
of line that the XC service used to traverse.

AIUI under the new south central franchise (i.e. what is currently
Southern), the franchisee will be required to operate a service or
services that cover all the relevant lines between Wandsworth Road,
Kensington Olympia and Ealing Broadway - so they'll either need to
send a class 171 Turbostar up to do this or come to some arrangement
with FGW to provide a service/ unit for this (as parts of the route
from Kenny O to Ealing Broadway lack not only juice rails, but juice
wires too).

Presumably this KO to Wandsworth Rd service is being done at the
instigation of the DfT - it's hard to imagine that Southern would do
it off their own back (unless it was a ploy to butter up the DfT to
ensure Govia/NSR retain the south central franchise - but even then I
somewhat doubt it). It does also mean that all the route knowledge
acquired by Southern crews for the Christmas-time diversion of the WLL
service via this route won't be lost (the trains ran fast from West
Brompton to Streatham Common because the lines at Clapham Jn were
blocked). Perhaps Southern knew about this longer term plan back then,
hence they were happy to sort out the route knowledge for the Xmas
diversions in the knowledge that it wouldn't be wasted?

Anyway, the timings of this service are as follows (note that it is
weekdays only) - it's non-stop so they don't call at West Brompton:

-----
Kensington Olympia d. 10:12
Wandsworth Road a. 10.29

Wandsworth Road d. 16:35
Kensington Olympia a. 16:53
-----

I guess it'll be worked by class 377 units that have just come off or
are heading to peak time duties on WLL services.

The services themselves appear to be fairly useless. If they were
running the other way - from Wandsworth Road to KO in the morning with
a return working in the afternoon, then one could argue that they
might be of some use to people heading to and from the Olympia
exhibition centre from start points along the South London Line (aka
the SLL, which is the London Bridge to Victoria via Peckham Rye
service) with a change at Wandsworth Road.

At a stretch one could say it might be useful way for patients to get
to and from King's College Hospital next to Denmark Hill station
(again via a change onto the SLL at Wandsworth Road) - but most
patients from west London will be served by west London hospitals.

So the service will basically be a daily trackbashers special! FWIW,
you do get a slightly difference perspective on Stewart's Lane depot
from this line.

I wouldn't be surprised that - when the ELLX phase 2 (to Clapham Jn)
opens - this duty will be performed by London Overground trains which
would otherwise be performing positioning moves early in the morning
or late at night (i.e. from Willesden depot down onto the ELLX).

The immediate surrounds of Wandsworth Road station are somewhat less
than salubrious, however in the rather unlikely event that anyone
wanted to 'make a day of it' then I'd advise they head south up into
Clapham which is but a mile away, perhaps to one of the many pleasant
watering holes there (I might recommend the Tim Bobbin or the Bread
and Roses), or to the Common if it's a nice day (again, if you get
thirsty there's the Windmill pub!). The Museum of British Transport on
the High Street is unfortunately,however, long gone!

I still find the whole thing rather absurd. The XC service never
provided a link between Wandsworth Road, KO and Ealing Broadway - it
only ever stopped at KO. No-one in their right mind would use this new
parliamentary service as a way of getting between any of the stations
served by the defunct XC service. That said, I know the law isn't
concerned with what services were provided over certain lines, just
that the lines were 'passenger served'. And I suppose it's perhaps a
case of better the devil you know (in the form of these rather
peculiar rules) than the devil you don't (i.e. much weaker or non-
existent closure rules).

On Apr 30, 12:09*pm, Mizter T wrote:

I still find the whole thing rather absurd. The XC service never
provided a link between Wandsworth Road, KO and Ealing Broadway - it
only ever stopped at KO. No-one in their right mind would use this new
parliamentary service as a way of getting between any of the stations
served by the defunct XC service. That said, I know the law isn't
concerned with what services were provided over certain lines, just
that the lines were 'passenger served'. And I suppose it's perhaps a
case of better the devil you know (in the form of these rather
peculiar rules) than the devil you don't (i.e. much weaker or non-
existent closure rules).

Yes, the belated Passenger Focus campaign completely missed the point
in its determination to keep these bits of steel and concrete
technically open for passengers. They could have suggested long-term
service patterns to serve the line for the benefit of the public, or
campaigned for a mechanism by which the route could be 'mothballed' in
passenger service terms until a better use can be found for it. No
doubt they will now issue a press release crowing about their
'victory' in securing a useless service. Well done PF!

Given that LO orbital services will terminate at CLJ in the longer
term i.e. not do a complete circuit, could we see a parliamentary
genuine Ringbahn service if they are asked to serve this section of
line? Phil Sayer will be exhausted by the time he's read all the ELL,
NLL and WLL stations twice :-)

On Apr 30, 12:26*pm, EE507 wrote:

On Apr 30, 12:09*pm, Mizter T wrote:

I still find the whole thing rather absurd. The XC service never
provided a link between Wandsworth Road, KO and Ealing Broadway - it
only ever stopped at KO. No-one in their right mind would use this new
parliamentary service as a way of getting between any of the stations
served by the defunct XC service. That said, I know the law isn't
concerned with what services were provided over certain lines, just
that the lines were 'passenger served'. And I suppose it's perhaps a
case of better the devil you know (in the form of these rather
peculiar rules) than the devil you don't (i.e. much weaker or non-
existent closure rules).

Yes, the belated Passenger Focus campaign completely missed the point
in its determination to keep these bits of steel and concrete
technically open for passengers. They could have suggested long-term
service patterns to serve the line for the benefit of the public, or
campaigned for a mechanism by which the route could be 'mothballed' in
passenger service terms until a better use can be found for it. No
doubt they will now issue a press release crowing about their
'victory' in securing a useless service. Well done PF!

Thanks for those comments. This new train 'service', as much fun as it
will be for rail enthusiasts and lovers of the strange and the
peculiar (which does, I suppose, include myself!), won't actually
provide anything extra for the normal travelling public apart from
delivering a few inattentive passengers to Wandsworth Road or
Kensington Olympia instead of their desired destination.

I'm no expert on the details of railway closure procedures - in
particular I'm pretty hazy about the rules with regards to non-
passenger served lines - but the law with regards to closing/keeping
in service passenger served lines seems fuzzy at best.


Given that LO orbital services will terminate at CLJ in the longer
term i.e. not do a complete circuit, could we see a parliamentary
genuine Ringbahn service if they are asked to serve this section of
line? Phil Sayer will be exhausted by the time he's read all the ELL,
NLL and WLL stations twice :-)

I doubt that'll happen. The ELLX and NLL services are to be quite
separate - the ELLX will terminate at Highbury & Islington on the
southern pair of tracks (with some trains terminating at Dalston Jn),
whilst the NLL will use the northern pair of tracks (this is all to be
constructed during the 4 month closure of the NLL in early 2010).
There will be a link between the ELLX and NLL, but it's only for the
purpose of stock transfer etc - I think it's a single line, and the
signalling definitely won't be for high-throughput of passenger
services. All that said, of course the set-up doesn't necessarily
preclude a once or twice a day parliamentary 'Ringbahn' train!

As I said earlier, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see
this KO to Wandsworth Road duty being performed by London Overground
in years to come once the ELLX phase 2 to Clapham Jn starts running.

Mizter T wrote:

This service will fulfil the requirement to keep this route served by
passenger trains - in other words it'll be a parliamentary train, in
the modern meaning of the phrase. Thus it will replace the so called
'Ghost Bus' rail-replacement bus service between Wandsworth Road and
Kensington Olympia, though the aforementioned bus will have to
continue serving the remainder of the route from Kensington Olympia to
Ealing Broadway so as to (supposedly) 'cover' the other two stretches
of line that the XC service used to traverse.

AIUI under the new south central franchise (i.e. what is currently
Southern), the franchisee will be required to operate a service or
services that cover all the relevant lines between Wandsworth Road,
Kensington Olympia and Ealing Broadway - so they'll either need to
send a class 171 Turbostar up to do this or come to some arrangement
with FGW to provide a service/ unit for this (as parts of the route
from Kenny O to Ealing Broadway lack not only juice rails, but juice
wires too).


As I noted in the last discussions about this, there seems little reason why
the Shepherds Bush to Ealing Broadway stretch cannot just be delegated to
the LU Central line. It is basically what they've just done with Farringdon
to Moorgate after all, so is a sure sign they just can't be bothered to go
through the closure procedures.

As you rightly say, the trains that are missing ran Reading - Kenny O -
Gatwick. This half baked palliative is fairly pointless on its own - I hope
when the full timetable becomes clear they aren't actually running ECS in
the opposite direction, but that the opposite moves are part of the
bigger WLL picture, ie peak extras...

Paul S

On 30/4/09 12:09, in article
, "Mizter
T" wrote:

-----
Kensington Olympia d. 10:12
Wandsworth Road a. 10.29

Wandsworth Road d. 16:35
Kensington Olympia a. 16:53
-----

Look out for a girl in a blue dress, a white rabbit, a hatter etc.

On 30 Apr, 12:45, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 30, 12:26*pm, EE507 wrote:





On Apr 30, 12:09*pm, Mizter T wrote:

I still find the whole thing rather absurd. The XC service never
provided a link between Wandsworth Road, KO and Ealing Broadway - it
only ever stopped at KO. No-one in their right mind would use this new
parliamentary service as a way of getting between any of the stations
served by the defunct XC service. That said, I know the law isn't
concerned with what services were provided over certain lines, just
that the lines were 'passenger served'. And I suppose it's perhaps a
case of better the devil you know (in the form of these rather
peculiar rules) than the devil you don't (i.e. much weaker or non-
existent closure rules).

Yes, the belated Passenger Focus campaign completely missed the point
in its determination to keep these bits of steel and concrete
technically open for passengers. They could have suggested long-term
service patterns to serve the line for the benefit of the public, or
campaigned for a mechanism by which the route could be 'mothballed' in
passenger service terms until a better use can be found for it. No
doubt they will now issue a press release crowing about their
'victory' in securing a useless service. Well done PF!

Thanks for those comments. This new train 'service', as much fun as it
will be for rail enthusiasts and lovers of the strange and the
peculiar (which does, I suppose, include myself!), won't actually
provide anything extra for the normal travelling public apart from
delivering a few inattentive passengers to Wandsworth Road or
Kensington Olympia instead of their desired destination.


There is already a train that shuttles between Clapham Junction and
Olympia at the end of the morning peak (08.33 ex Shepherds Bush
(formed from the 07.47 East Croydon arriving 08.21), then 08.48 ex CJ,
09.09 ex Olympia, 09.24 ex CJ and 09.45 ex Olympia) and . I assume
that this unit will make an extra trip to Olympia (maybe ECS) and then
work the Wandsworth Road train. The only extra cost to Southern will
be the extra crew time taken to get to whereever the unit stables,
plus the extra track access charges. I don't think that this train has
to be a dual voltage unit, as it stays South of Shepherd's Bush,
although I don't have the diagrams to hand. Southern do use 455s when
the Milton Keynes services can't run onto the WCML.

There is a similar evening peak train that starts with the 17.24 ex
Clapham Junction - Shepherd's Bush, then the 17.50 to Croydon, again
it looks like the unit will just arrive on the West London line early,
via Wandsworth Road.


I'm no expert on the details of railway closure procedures - in
particular I'm pretty hazy about the rules with regards to non-
passenger served lines - but the law with regards to closing/keeping
in service passenger served lines seems fuzzy at best.



Given that LO orbital services will terminate at CLJ in the longer
term i.e. not do a complete circuit, could we see a parliamentary
genuine Ringbahn service if they are asked to serve this section of
line? Phil Sayer will be exhausted by the time he's read all the ELL,
NLL and WLL stations twice :-)

I doubt that'll happen. The ELLX and NLL services are to be quite
separate - the ELLX will terminate at Highbury & Islington on the
southern pair of tracks (with some trains terminating at Dalston Jn),
whilst the NLL will use the northern pair of tracks (this is all to be
constructed during the 4 month closure of the NLL in early 2010).
There will be a link between the ELLX and NLL, but it's only for the
purpose of stock transfer etc - I think it's a single line, and the
signalling definitely won't be for high-throughput of passenger
services. All that said, of course the set-up doesn't necessarily
preclude a once or twice a day parliamentary 'Ringbahn' train!

As I said earlier, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see
this KO to Wandsworth Road duty being performed by London Overground
in years to come once the ELLX phase 2 to Clapham Jn starts running.

Personally, I can't see LO taking over the Wandsworth Road section, as
they don't need the route knowledge for diversionary reasons. I can
forsee that they will run any Kensington - Ealing service though, as
they will have their class 172s based nearby.

On 30 Apr, 12:09, Mizter T wrote:
I guess it'll be worked by class 377 units that have just come off or
are heading to peak time duties on WLL services.

The morning one must be the train that terminates at Shepherd's Bush
at 09:37 (though I'm curious where it goes until 10:12 - is North Pole
open?). The afternoon working becomes the 17:00 Kensington-CLJ. Also
it's timetabled 18 minutes to travel 4 miles non-stop. It makes the 14
minutes Shepherd's Bush - Wembley Central (5 miles) journey look
fast.

U

On Apr 30, 1:31*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
This service will fulfil the requirement to keep this route served by
passenger trains - in other words it'll be a parliamentary train, in
the modern meaning of the phrase. Thus it will replace the so called
'Ghost Bus' rail-replacement bus service between Wandsworth Road and
Kensington Olympia, though the aforementioned bus will have to
continue serving the remainder of the route from Kensington Olympia to
Ealing Broadway so as to (supposedly) 'cover' the other two stretches
of line that the XC service used to traverse.

AIUI under the new south central franchise (i.e. what is currently
Southern), the franchisee will be required to operate a service or
services that cover all the relevant lines between Wandsworth Road,
Kensington Olympia and Ealing Broadway - so they'll either need to
send a class 171 Turbostar up to do this or come to some arrangement
with FGW to provide a service/ unit for this (as parts of the route
from Kenny O to Ealing Broadway lack not only juice rails, but juice
wires too).

As I noted in the last discussions about this, there seems little reason why
the Shepherds Bush to Ealing Broadway stretch cannot just be delegated to
the LU Central line. *It is basically what they've just done with Farringdon
to Moorgate after all, so is a sure sign they just can't be bothered to go
through the closure procedures.

Indeed. Presumably the reason why the Central line can't cover this
stretch is that it doesn't actually traverse the relevant stretches of
railway line - of course neither does the bus, but then there were
some suggestions that long-term bustitution of such lines is of
questionably legality anyway.

(Just for the sake of clarity, Farringdon to Moorgate did go through a
proper closure procedure, but the existence of alternative LU services
meant this wasn't massively controversial.)


As you rightly say, the trains that are missing ran Reading - Kenny O -
Gatwick. This half baked palliative is fairly pointless on its own - I hope
when the full timetable becomes clear they aren't actually running ECS in
the opposite direction, but that the opposite moves are part of the
bigger WLL picture, ie peak extras...

Quite.

The problematic service that the new south central franchisee will
apparently be required to provide is that of KO to Ealing Broadway - I
can't really see how that could neatly fit in with the positioning
moves of Southern's 171s, FGW's 165/166 Turbos could do it but I doubt
they'd exactly be keen to do so.

It all just comes across as rather daft.

On Apr 30, 1:44*pm, wrote:

On 30 Apr, 12:45, Mizter T wrote:

[big snip]

There is already a train that shuttles between Clapham Junction and
Olympia at the end of the morning peak (08.33 ex Shepherds Bush
(formed from the 07.47 East Croydon arriving 08.21), then 08.48 ex CJ,
09.09 ex Olympia, 09.24 ex CJ and 09.45 ex Olympia) and . I assume
that this unit will make an extra trip to Olympia (maybe ECS) and then
work the Wandsworth Road train. The only extra cost to Southern will
be the extra crew time taken to get to whereever the unit stables,
plus the extra track access charges. I don't think that this train has
to be a dual voltage unit, as it stays South of Shepherd's Bush,
although I don't have the diagrams to hand. Southern do use 455s when
the Milton Keynes services can't run onto the WCML.

There is a similar evening peak train that starts with the 17.24 ex
Clapham Junction - Shepherd's Bush, then the 17.50 to Croydon, again
it looks like the unit will just arrive on the West London line early,
via Wandsworth Road.

Thanks - I thought it likely that this new service would be connected
with the peak time extra services on the WLL.


As I said earlier, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see
this KO to Wandsworth Road duty being performed by London Overground
in years to come once the ELLX phase 2 to Clapham Jn starts running.

Personally, I can't see LO taking over the Wandsworth Road section, as
they don't need the route knowledge for diversionary reasons. I can
forsee that they will run any Kensington - Ealing service though, as
they will have their class 172s based nearby.

There have been suggestions that LO trains will perform some
interesting positioning moves using lines in south London when the
ELLX opens up for business - I think this was based on exchanges
between the ORR and TfL with regards to track access - so I was just
thinking that, once ELLX phase 2 opens, these positioning moves might
involve trains coming from the Willesden depot down the WLL and then
straight on to the South London Line and on to the ELL (via the new
link between Queens Rd Peckham and Surrey Quays). That said, I suppose
the point of such moves might well be that of getting trains down to
West Croydon / Crystal Palace for the start of service.

Nonetheless it does seem sensible to me that LO could make use of the
direct route from Wandsworth Road to the WLL instead of having to go
to Clapham Jn and reverse (and certainly more useful for LO than for
Southern as a diversionary route).

We shall of course see what happens in due course.

On Apr 30, 1:50*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 30 Apr, 12:09, Mizter T wrote:
I guess it'll be worked by class 377 units that have just come off or
are heading to peak time duties on WLL services.

The morning one must be the train that terminates at Shepherd's Bush
at 09:37 (though I'm curious where it goes until 10:12 - is North Pole
open?).

No - North Pole is most definitely closed. Could it possibly recess
somewhere in the vicinity of Willesden Jn?

*The afternoon working becomes the 17:00 Kensington-CLJ. Also
it's timetabled 18 minutes to travel 4 miles non-stop. It makes the 14
minutes Shepherd's Bush - Wembley Central (5 miles) *journey look
fast.

Nice big long stop somewhere on the 'Ludgate Lines' I guess. Freight
trains can often be seen waiting for a path down there.