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Crossrail under way
TimB wrote:
It's happening! As Boris said: 'The shovels have tasted earth'. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8051185.stm I see from the Crossrail site they are now referring to the station as 'Canary Wharf' and no longer 'Isle of Dogs'. Is there any detail available yet about direct interchange between the DLR and Crossrail here - it is the DLR station at West India Quay that is immediately above, so could there yet be some renaming of existing stations? Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Paul S |
Crossrail under way
On 15 May, 19:38, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Is there any detail available yet about direct interchange between the DLR and Crossrail here - it is the DLR station at West India Quay that is immediately above, so could there yet be some renaming of existing stations? Boris himself posted this picture which shows what's what: http://twitpic.com/57hlg/full Note that West India Quay and Canary Wharf DLR aren't even in the photo. I think the walking route to both CW DLR and Jubilee Line stations will be reasonably short (via the collonade of trees, bottom right), but the only route that doesn't require crossing roads is to West India Quay. The random columns in that photo represent the ground floor of a new as-yet-undesigned development, which will surely have indoor connections to both Poplar DLR and the Crossrail station, and potentially West India Quay, which of course would also mean an indoor interchange route. Finally, the man in the appallingly ill-fitting suit is apparently our prime minister, though I can't find any planning documents that back this up. Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Very likely. U |
Crossrail under way
Paul Scott wrote on 15 May 2009
19:38:46 ... TimB wrote: It's happening! As Boris said: 'The shovels have tasted earth'. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8051185.stm I see from the Crossrail site they are now referring to the station as 'Canary Wharf' and no longer 'Isle of Dogs'. The press release for today's announcement refers to "the renamed Canary Wharf station". Is there any detail available yet about direct interchange between the DLR and Crossrail here - it is the DLR station at West India Quay that is immediately above, so could there yet be some renaming of existing stations? The WIQ/Crossrail positioning is roughly a mirror image of that for Heron Quays / Jubilee Line. WIQ will probably be slightly nearer that DLR Canary Wharf, but not much. Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Probably. Do you have a better naming plan? By the way, I note that one of the new Crossrail maps shows "Heathrow T1,2,3 and 4". Until now they have seemed reluctant to admit that Crossrail won't serve T5, and indeed most of the maps still show just "Heathrow" or "Heathrow Airport", and all of them show only one station 'blob'. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Crossrail under way
On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mr Thant wrote:
On 15 May, 19:38, "Paul Scott" wrote: Is there any detail available yet about direct interchange between the DLR and Crossrail here - it is the DLR station at West India Quay that is immediately above, so could there yet be some renaming of existing stations? Boris himself posted this picture which shows what's what: http://twitpic.com/57hlg/full Wow. I didn't realise it was going to grow out of the water like that. How is it connected to dry land on the side we can't see? Two little bridges like on the side we can, or more? The bridges on this side don't seem like a lot of capacity for such a major station. Note that West India Quay and Canary Wharf DLR aren't even in the photo. I think the walking route to both CW DLR and Jubilee Line stations will be reasonably short (via the collonade of trees, bottom right), but the only route that doesn't require crossing roads is to West India Quay. Can it be a colonnade if it's trees? I'm sure there's a word for this - i've looked it up and found 'allee', but that's not what i was thinking of. Finally, the man in the appallingly ill-fitting suit is apparently our prime minister, though I can't find any planning documents that back this up. Ah, well now there's a detail that will almost certainly have been dropped by 2016 ... tom -- Beware! Inside pie, there are chickens, gamecubes, Moltres, Raichu, and bacteria(in a good way!) -- Wikipedia |
Crossrail under way
On Fri, 15 May 2009, Richard J. wrote:
Paul Scott wrote on 15 May 2009 19:38:46 ... Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Probably. Do you have a better naming plan? Canary Wharf West, Canary Wharf Market, and Canary Wharf Main Line! tom -- Lilith doesn't exist, but it's an interesting story. |
Crossrail under way
Mr Thant wrote:
Boris himself posted this picture which shows what's what: http://twitpic.com/57hlg/full the man in the appallingly ill-fitting suit is apparently our prime minister. Here he is in his spare time... http://www.british-emporium.com/orig...bies5x7web.jpg |
Crossrail under way
On 16 May, 02:05, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 15 May 2009, Richard J. wrote: Paul Scott wrote on 15 May 2009 19:38:46 ... Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Probably. *Do you have a better naming plan? Canary Wharf West, Canary Wharf Market, and Canary Wharf Main Line! There'll be as many as Actons before we know it, Anyway, in keeping with Maidstone, the one furthest north should be called Canary Wharf East, and in keeping with Canterbury, the one furthest south should be called Canary Wharf East. This will avoid confusion. |
Crossrail under way
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message rth.li... On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mr Thant wrote: On 15 May, 19:38, "Paul Scott" wrote: Is there any detail available yet about direct interchange between the DLR and Crossrail here - it is the DLR station at West India Quay that is immediately above, so could there yet be some renaming of existing stations? Boris himself posted this picture which shows what's what: http://twitpic.com/57hlg/full Wow. I didn't realise it was going to grow out of the water like that. How is it connected to dry land on the side we can't see? Two little bridges like on the side we can, or more? The bridges on this side don't seem like a lot of capacity for such a major station. Note that West India Quay and Canary Wharf DLR aren't even in the photo. I think the walking route to both CW DLR and Jubilee Line stations will be reasonably short (via the collonade of trees, bottom right), but the only route that doesn't require crossing roads is to West India Quay. Can it be a colonnade if it's trees? I'm sure there's a word for this - i've looked it up and found 'allee', but that's not what i was thinking of. Avenue? |
Crossrail under way
Tom Anderson wrote:
Can it be a colonnade if it's trees? I'm sure there's a word for this - i've looked it up and found 'allee', but that's not what i was thinking of. Avenue. |
Crossrail under way
On 16 May, 02:04, Tom Anderson wrote:
Wow. I didn't realise it was going to grow out of the water like that. How is it connected to dry land on the side we can't see? Two little bridges like on the side we can, or more? The bridges on this side don't seem like a lot of capacity for such a major station. I've had a dig through the planning documents. The arrangements a North side, west end: - Lifting pedestrian bridge (upper level) - in white in the photo - Lifting pedestrian bridge (ground level) - in brown in the photo (why yes sir, a double decker draw bridge) North side, east end: - Lifting road bridge (upper level) South side, west end (the main entrance): - Fixed pedestrian ramp leading all the way to North Colonnade (upper level) - Fixed pedestrian bridge (ground level) South side, middle: - Fixed pedestrian bridge (ground level) South side, east end: - Fixed road bridge with pedestrian access (upper level) - Very wide fixed pedestrian area above dock (ground level) Diagram he http://tinyurl.com/ojt5nc Also, the whole roof lattice is made out of WOOD! Can it be a colonnade if it's trees? I'm sure there's a word for this - i've looked it up and found 'allee', but that's not what i was thinking of. The roads either side of Canada Square and Canary Wharf DLR are called North and South Colonnade, despite having no discernible colonnisity that I've noticed. I've decided everything gets to be a colonnade around here. U |
Crossrail under way
On 2009-05-16 06:52:12 +0100, MIG said:
On 16 May, 02:05, Tom Anderson wrote: On Fri, 15 May 2009, Richard J. wrote: Paul Scott wrote on 15 May 2009 19:38: 46 ... Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Probably. *Do you have a better naming plan? Canary Wharf West, Canary Wharf Market, and Canary Wharf Main Line! There'll be as many as Actons before we know it, Anyway, in keeping with Maidstone, the one furthest north should be called Canary Wharf East, and in keeping with Canterbury, the one furthest south should be called Canary Wharf East. This will avoid confusion. If the Canary Wharf were to be found west of London, then one would certainly be Canary Wharf General... -- Robert |
Crossrail under way
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message rth.li... On Fri, 15 May 2009, Richard J. wrote: Paul Scott wrote on 15 May 2009 19:38:46 ... Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Probably. Do you have a better naming plan? Canary Wharf West, Canary Wharf Market, and Canary Wharf Main Line! Perhaps Poplar should become Canary Wharf North East - might even be nearer than Canary Wharf DLR? Paul S |
Crossrail under way
"Richard J." wrote in message m... By the way, I note that one of the new Crossrail maps shows "Heathrow T1,2,3 and 4". Until now they have seemed reluctant to admit that Crossrail won't serve T5, and indeed most of the maps still show just "Heathrow" or "Heathrow Airport", and all of them show only one station 'blob'. Are you talking about the (carriage style) line maps? Most info published about service patterns has fairly categorically been about T4 via T123 for a few years now. Paul S |
Crossrail under way
In message
, at 03:06:34 on Sat, 16 May 2009, Mr Thant remarked: Wow. I didn't realise it was going to grow out of the water like that. How is it connected to dry land on the side we can't see? Two little bridges like on the side we can, or more? The bridges on this side don't seem like a lot of capacity for such a major station. Diagram he http://tinyurl.com/ojt5nc And the railway lines - deep underground I suppose (below the docks). -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail under way
On May 15, 11:58*pm, "Richard J." wrote: Paul Scott wrote on 15 May 2009 19:38:46 ... I see from the Crossrail site they are now referring to the station as 'Canary Wharf' and no longer 'Isle of Dogs'. The press release *for today's announcement refers to "the renamed Canary Wharf station". Boo! I far preferred it being named Isle of Dogs, it was an antidote against all the slick presentation. Calling it Canary Wharf is just boring. Unless the canaries come back. Is there any detail available yet about direct interchange between the DLR and Crossrail here - it is the DLR station at West India Quay that is immediately above, so could there yet be some renaming of existing stations? The WIQ/Crossrail positioning is roughly a mirror image of that for Heron Quays / Jubilee Line. *WIQ will probably be slightly nearer that DLR Canary Wharf, but not much. Yes, West India Quay DLR will likely provide the slightly less fussy route from the Crossrail station. No "direct interchange" as such, but more or less as good as that. Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Probably. *Do you have a better naming plan? Canary Wharf Gone To The Dogs? Canary Wharf Taxpayers entrance? Canary Woof? Insert Money Here? Canary Wharf (Doghouse)? Canary Wharf: Set the Dog Amongst the Finches? Thatcherville? The Old Lady of Finchley Wharf? We Used To Make Stuff, Y'Know? Stepney Marsh? |
Crossrail under way
Paul Scott wrote on 16 May 2009
11:24:51 ... "Richard J." wrote in message m... By the way, I note that one of the new Crossrail maps shows "Heathrow T1,2,3 and 4". Until now they have seemed reluctant to admit that Crossrail won't serve T5, and indeed most of the maps still show just "Heathrow" or "Heathrow Airport", and all of them show only one station 'blob'. Are you talking about the (carriage style) line maps? Most info published about service patterns has fairly categorically been about T4 via T123 for a few years now. I'm talking about the route maps on the Crossrail site at http://www.crossrail.co.uk/pages/routemaps03.html That page lists the following ... Route regional map May 2009.pdf - 209.7Kb Route connections May 2009.pdf - 192.8Kb Route connections with airports May 2009.pdf - 217.1Kb Route linear map large print May 2009.pdf - 153.2Kb Route linear map May 2009.pdf - 159.1Kb .... of which only the last shows T1,2,3 and 4. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Crossrail under way
On 16 May, 11:52, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 03:06:34 on Sat, 16 May 2009, Mr Thant And the railway lines - deep underground I suppose (below the docks). Yes: http://tinyurl.com/q8spkt U |
Crossrail under way
In message
, at 06:24:04 on Sat, 16 May 2009, Mr Thant remarked: And the railway lines - deep underground I suppose (below the docks). Yes: http://tinyurl.com/q8spkt Very revealing. Four floors of retail, then ticket hall below that and the platforms below that. I was wondering why they needed such a long building if the trains were below the surface. RETAIL! -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail under way
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 06:24:04 on Sat, 16 May 2009, Mr Thant remarked: And the railway lines - deep underground I suppose (below the docks). Yes: http://tinyurl.com/q8spkt Very revealing. Four floors of retail, then ticket hall below that and the platforms below that. I was wondering why they needed such a long building if the trains were below the surface. RETAIL! Maybe they wouldn't be allowed to have platforms below water. |
Crossrail under way
On Sat, 16 May 2009, DW downunder wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message rth.li... On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mr Thant wrote: Note that West India Quay and Canary Wharf DLR aren't even in the photo. I think the walking route to both CW DLR and Jubilee Line stations will be reasonably short (via the collonade of trees, bottom right), but the only route that doesn't require crossing roads is to West India Quay. Can it be a colonnade if it's trees? I'm sure there's a word for this - i've looked it up and found 'allee', but that's not what i was thinking of. Avenue? It is, isn't it? That word had drifted through my mind, but for some reason i ignored it. Avenue! tom -- Science runs with us, making us Gods. |
Crossrail under way
On Fri, 15 May 2009, MIG wrote:
On 16 May, 02:05, Tom Anderson wrote: On Fri, 15 May 2009, Richard J. wrote: Paul Scott wrote on 15 May 2009 19:38:46 ... Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Probably. *Do you have a better naming plan? Canary Wharf West, Canary Wharf Market, and Canary Wharf Main Line! There'll be as many as Actons before we know it, Anyway, in keeping with Maidstone, And Dulwich. the one furthest north should be called Canary Wharf East, and in keeping with Canterbury, And Finchley. the one furthest south should be called Canary Wharf East. This will avoid confusion. A flawless plan. tom -- Science runs with us, making us Gods. |
Crossrail under way
"Robert" wrote
Probably. Do you have a better naming plan? Canary Wharf West, Canary Wharf Market, and Canary Wharf Main Line! There'll be as many as Actons before we know it, Anyway, in keeping with Maidstone, the one furthest north should be called Canary Wharf East, and in keeping with Canterbury, the one furthest south should be called Canary Wharf East. This will avoid confusion. If the Canary Wharf were to be found west of London, then one would certainly be Canary Wharf General... It's important not to mislead the commuters, so they'll probably go for "City Crossrail"; this would avoid confusion in later years when the route becomes "FirstCapitalDissect. -- Andrew |
Crossrail under way
In message , at 15:04:13 on Sat, 16
May 2009, John Rowland remarked: http://tinyurl.com/q8spkt Very revealing. Four floors of retail, then ticket hall below that and the platforms below that. I was wondering why they needed such a long building if the trains were below the surface. RETAIL! Maybe they wouldn't be allowed to have platforms below water. They are below water, just like the Jubilee line station. Having built on every scrap of land they are now building on the old docks - so inconsiderate for someone to have dug them in the first place. -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail under way
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:04:13 on Sat, 16 May 2009, John Rowland remarked: http://tinyurl.com/q8spkt Very revealing. Four floors of retail, then ticket hall below that and the platforms below that. I was wondering why they needed such a long building if the trains were below the surface. RETAIL! Maybe they wouldn't be allowed to have platforms below water. They are below water, just like the Jubilee line station. The Jubilee Line station looks like it's entirely below ex-water to me. |
Crossrail under way
John Rowland wrote:
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 15:04:13 on Sat, 16 May 2009, John Rowland remarked: http://tinyurl.com/q8spkt Very revealing. Four floors of retail, then ticket hall below that and the platforms below that. I was wondering why they needed such a long building if the trains were below the surface. RETAIL! Maybe they wouldn't be allowed to have platforms below water. They are below water, just like the Jubilee line station. The Jubilee Line station looks like it's entirely below ex-water to me. In fact, IIRC they had originally planned teh Jubilee station to be beneath water except for the two entrance pods, but H&S had kittens and they were forced to turn the area between the pods into a park. |
Crossrail under way
In message , at 17:19:56 on Sat, 16
May 2009, John Rowland remarked: Maybe they wouldn't be allowed to have platforms below water. They are below water, just like the Jubilee line station. The Jubilee Line station looks like it's entirely below ex-water to me. I can assure you that the top half of the escalators down to the booking hall, and the canopies over the entrances, are above water! -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail under way
In message , at 12:06:12
on Sat, 16 May 2009, remarked: Having built on every scrap of land they are now building on the old docks - so inconsiderate for someone to have dug them in the first place. Why? It's not as if the docks are required for shipping any more. They are part of the landscape. If not, why didn't they just fill them in when they started building the area - it would have been so much simpler. -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail under way
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 12:06:12 on Sat, 16 May 2009, remarked: Why? It's not as if the docks are required for shipping any more. They are part of the landscape. If not, why didn't they just fill them in when they started building the area - it would have been so much simpler. Having scanned a few of the many press releases now, some of the excavated material from this site is being used to backfill the dock outside the piling, up to the minimum depth 'at the access routes' - which I take to mean the top cill at the entrance locks. I assume this reduces the pressure against the lower levels of the concrete walls? Another point I've just spotted is there are other station names that are supposedly provisional - they quote Liverpool St and Farringdon for instance, as they link to Moorgate and Barbican respectively. To save searching can anyone remember where the other ends of the Bond St and Tottenham Court Rd stations are - IIRC they aren't near existing stations though. Paul S |
Crossrail under way
On May 16, 8:47 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: Another point I've just spotted is there are other station names that are supposedly provisional - they quote Liverpool St and Farringdon for instance, as they link to Moorgate and Barbican respectively. Looking at street names I think "Smithfield" might be a reasonable name for the Farringdon/Barbican Crossrail station, if you didn't want to name it one of those, or possibly Charterhouse. Given Liverpool Street's prominence as a terminus, I can't imagine them going for "Finsbury Circus"... -- Abi |
Crossrail under way
"Paul Scott" wrote.. To save searching can anyone remember where the other ends of the Bond St and Tottenham Court Rd stations are - IIRC they aren't near existing stations though. Both extend widely to new entrances (eg TCR will new entrances at Hanocer square and near Centre point), but neither will impinge on neighbouring stations. I'm pretty sure that L'pool St/Moorgate and Farringdon/Barbican are the only ones where this is an issue. Station naming is a big issue for the fire brigade - I recall a few years ago a proposal to rename Monument as Bank, which has a certain logic, but with some 12 entrances (I made that up - but there's plenty), the LFB reckoned that getting to the right one in event of fire or terrorist activity was going to be a tad difficult. -- Andrew |
Crossrail under way
On 16 May, 16:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:04:13 on Sat, 16 May 2009, John Rowland remarked: Maybe they wouldn't be allowed to have platforms below water. Not so. If it weren't for the last-minute addition of the retail component, the station would have been built with exactly the same layout, only with water where the retail will be. Having built on every scrap of land they are now building on the old docks - so inconsiderate for someone to have dug them in the first place. There's no other reason for it being built so much earlier than the rest of the line. The Canary Wharf Group (or whatever they're called) must be very keen to get those shops open. U |
Crossrail under way
On May 17, 12:23*am, Mr Thant wrote: On 16 May, 16:24, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 15:04:13 on Sat, 16 May 2009, John Rowland remarked: Maybe they wouldn't be allowed to have platforms below water. Not so. If it weren't for the last-minute addition of the retail component, the station would have been built with exactly the same layout, only with water where the retail will be. Having built on every scrap of land they are now building on the old docks - so inconsiderate for someone to have dug them in the first place. There's no other reason for it being built so much earlier than the rest of the line. The Canary Wharf Group (or whatever they're called) must be very keen to get those shops open. Not so quick - there is another reason, namely that North Quay will be the worksite for the Crossrail station. The Canary Wharf Group (CWG) can't begin construction of the new office development on North Quay, which already has planning permission, until the Crossrail station box has been finished - which it should be by summer 2012. So the shops aren't the driving force here. There's more info in this CWG press release (look for the para beginning "North Quay..."): http://www.canarywharf.com/news/ns_news_t.asp?id=398 This bit's also interesting: ---quote--- Canary Wharf Group will construct Canary Wharf Crossrail station for a fixed price of £500 million. £350 million of the station’s £500 million costs will be met from Crossrail’s £15.9bn budget with CWG bearing the risk in relation to costs above the fixed price limit. CWG’s contribution of £150 million will be applied against future Crossrail Section 106 contributions for certain agreed sites which may be required as proposed alterations to the London Plan. ---/quote--- So the station is CWG's 'baby', which perhaps explains the addition of the four floors of retail (is this element really such a late addition though?). |
Crossrail under way
In message
, at 16:23:08 on Sat, 16 May 2009, Mr Thant remarked: There's no other reason for it being built so much earlier than the rest of the line. The Canary Wharf Group (or whatever they're called) must be very keen to get those shops open. Do they have to dig the tunnels that connect to the station first, or does the station box come first? -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail under way
In message , at 21:14:46 on
Sat, 16 May 2009, Paul Corfield remarked: Hanover Square / Tenterden St behind Oxford St / Oxford Circus is the eastern exit point for Bond St Station. IIRC there is no physical link to Oxford Circus tube station. Only in London could we fail to provide such a link. Perhaps a "crowd control" feature. They want to spread the people out by making them take a roundabout route. -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail under way
On May 17, 7:50*am, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 16:23:08 on Sat, 16 May 2009, Mr Thant remarked: There's no other reason for it being built so much earlier than the rest of the line. The Canary Wharf Group (or whatever they're called) must be very keen to get those shops open. Do they have to dig the tunnels that connect to the station first, or does the station box come first? The station box, by the looks of it - the construction of which was kicked off on Friday at Canary Wharf (or at least that's what the PR people would have you believe!) . From a construction POV I'd imagine that sequencing the station box first can only make sense - not sure it'd really be possible or at least easy to do it the other way round. |
Crossrail under way
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:23:08 on Sat, 16 May 2009, Mr Thant remarked: There's no other reason for it being built so much earlier than the rest of the line. The Canary Wharf Group (or whatever they're called) must be very keen to get those shops open. Do they have to dig the tunnels that connect to the station first, or does the station box come first? If they don't want the tunnels to flood, they'd better build the station box first! |
Crossrail under way
On 17 May, 00:56, Mizter T wrote:
Not so quick - there is another reason, namely that North Quay will be the worksite for the Crossrail station. The Canary Wharf Group (CWG) can't begin construction of the new office development on North Quay, which already has planning permission, until the Crossrail station box has been finished - which it should be by summer 2012. So the shops aren't the driving force here. Ah, that makes sense. So the station is CWG's 'baby', which perhaps explains the addition of the four floors of retail (is this element really such a late addition though?). Yes. Original design with two separate islands (see drawing page 336): http://billdocuments.crossrail.co.uk...er_08_pt09.pdf Announcement of new design (July 2008): http://www.canarywharf.com/news/ns_news_t.asp?id=344 (it may have always been envisioned something might go in the middle, but certainly it was only as an optional extra) U |
Crossrail under way
On May 16, 6:52*am, MIG wrote:
Or will they stick with three totally separate Canary Wharf stations, and have a pretty confusing set of 'outerchanges'? Anyway, in keeping with Maidstone, the one furthest north should be called Canary Wharf East, and in keeping with Canterbury, the one furthest south should be called Canary Wharf East. *This will avoid confusion. LOL -- Nick |
Crossrail under way
On May 17, 1:29*pm, "John Rowland"
wrote: Do they have to dig the tunnels that connect to the station first, or does the station box come first? If they don't want the tunnels to flood, they'd better build the station box first! You beat me to it. -- Nick |
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