[original thread on uk.railway]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Jun 8, 7:29*pm, wrote:

On Jun 8, 6:49*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Peter Masson" wrote:

Boris Johnson has announced that Oyster PAYG will be accepted on National
Rail throughout Greater London during the tube strike if it goes ahead.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx
How will that work? Have all National rail stations now got working Oyster
readers?Is the back office geared up to deduct the correct fare for all
National Rail journeys? If the answer to both questions is yes, why can't
Oyster PAYG on National Rail start immediately?

I just noticed SWT's take on this earlier:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWT...ndergroundstri....

"... The services are Feltham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo via Kew
Bridge or via Richmond; and Wimbledon to Clapham Junction and Waterloo. This
includes PAYG and paper tickets.
We shall not be accepting PAYG or paper London Underground tickets at any
other SWT station."

As you say it will be interesting if they actually switch on their PAYG
functionality just for a couple of days, but how else could it work?

As the TfL link just says show your card, I assume that TfL will be
paying the TOCs to accept them, without fares necessarily being
deducted. Of course, SWT

from the link above

For the sake of clarity, that's the TfL news release - which I'll
repeat he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx


'National Rail

Oyster pay as you go will be accepted on all National Rail journeys
within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday, just show your Oyster
card at station gate lines.'

There does seem to be a bit of a disagreement between the SWT site
(basically only valid on routes near LU lines) and the TfL site (valid
everywhere), but I can see no info on the Southern, South Eastern or
FCC sites (I gave up checking after these!!), where there are also LU
lines nearby.


Ah, what delightful confusion. It seems that either SWT or TfL don't
understand what they've agreed upon. I assume that this contingency
plan for Oyster PAYG to be accepted on NR was negotiated some time
ago, presumably between TfL and ATOC acting on behalf of all the
London TOCs - it is after all the 'nuclear option', as it were. If so,
then perhaps there's been some misunderstanding of it after it was
taken off the shelf and dusted off - but if so, is that
misunderstanding SWT's or TfL's part (I'd wager on the former! But
maybe not, and Boris/TfL are chancing/pushing it?).

Alternatively, perhaps the agreement was struck more recently, what
with the threat of a looming strike. (Could it even have been struck
by a Boris administration, aware of the potential of forthcoming
trouble?) If it's been struck more recently, then it's shabby that
they can't sing from teh same hymn sheet.

Regardless, this is a stupid situation - if TfL are proclaiming that,
then SWT can't penalise people for following that advice. If they do,
then there'll be a lot of penalty fares appeals!

FWIW, I can certainly see the logic in restricting the acceptance of
Oyster card holders to only some routes - the Tube network doesn't go
anywhere near Surbiton after all.

The National Rail Website says the following:

Oyster Card 'Pay as you go' will be accepted on National Rail journeys
in Greater London.


I would therefore say that iy is all of National Rail.

Peter

"collybs" wrote in message
...
The National Rail Website says the following:

Oyster Card 'Pay as you go' will be accepted on National Rail journeys
in Greater London.


I would therefore say that iy is all of National Rail.

Peter

Can anybody say if Chingford has Oyster readers or not?
NEAX website they will be installed by Spring 2008, TfL website map says no
Oyster availability there yet. Considering it is only 4 stops from
Walthamstow Central on an isolated line it would make some sense to have it
there but we are talking about rail firms here.

Think I will print out and take the TfL page saying Oyster can be used on
NR, just in case....

Nick

On Jun 9, 9:46*am, "Nick P"
wrote:

"collybs" wrote:

The National Rail Website says the following:

Oyster Card 'Pay as you go' will be accepted on National Rail journeys
in Greater London.

I would therefore say that iy is all of National Rail.


Can anybody say if Chingford has Oyster readers or not?
NEAX website they will be installed by Spring 2008, TfL website map says no
Oyster availability there yet. Considering it is only 4 stops from
Walthamstow Central on an isolated line it would make some sense to have it
there but we are talking about rail firms here.

Think I will print out and take the TfL page saying Oyster can be used on
NR, just in case....

If any Oyster readers have been installed at Chingford, they will
*not* be available for public use yet - they will likely be covered up
and turned off. Oyster PAYG has not gone live across the National Rail
network in London - this is now not expected to happen until some time
next year, i.e. 2010.

Oyster PAYG being accepted on NR during the strike days is a bit of a
misnomer - in essence if you have an Oyster card you will simply be
waved through.

There is a question mark about what will happen on routes where Oyster
PAYG is accepted for only part of the route - e.g. the Chingford
branch and the other NXEA branches in NE London are an example - if
the passenger uses their Oyster card at only one end of the journey,
i.e. at Liverpool Street, and whether this would incur the £4 charge
for an unresolved journey (actually a higher £5 charge applies from
the relevant London termini stations).

How this will be dealt with is unclear - it's possible that TfL will
do a mass refund of erroneously applied charges after the strike,
which would be automatically applied as much as possible. I think
there could be another possible solution to this as well, but as we
don't know how this will be dealt with so it's all just speculation at
the moment.

Perhaps the best way of avoiding this issue is to try and avoid using
the automatic gates at Liverpool Street and go through the side gate
instead. This of course depends upon how things are done on the day at
Liverpool Street, and whether staff allow you through the side gates
when simply brandishing an Oyster card.

On Jun 8, 9:28*pm, Mizter T wrote:
[original thread on uk.railway]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Jun 8, 7:29*pm, wrote:





On Jun 8, 6:49*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Peter Masson" wrote:

Boris Johnson has announced that Oyster PAYG will be accepted on National
Rail throughout Greater London during the tube strike if it goes ahead.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx
How will that work? Have all National rail stations now got working Oyster
readers?Is the back office geared up to deduct the correct fare for all
National Rail journeys? If the answer to both questions is yes, why can't
Oyster PAYG on National Rail start immediately?

I just noticed SWT's take on this earlier:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWT...ndergroundstri....

"... The services are Feltham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo via Kew
Bridge or via Richmond; and Wimbledon to Clapham Junction and Waterloo. This
includes PAYG and paper tickets.
We shall not be accepting PAYG or paper London Underground tickets at any
other SWT station."

As you say it will be interesting if they actually switch on their PAYG
functionality just for a couple of days, but how else could it work?

As the TfL link just says show your card, I assume that TfL will be
paying the TOCs to accept them, without fares necessarily being
deducted. Of course, SWT

from the link above

For the sake of clarity, that's the TfL news release - which I'll
repeat hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx



'National Rail

Oyster pay as you go will be accepted on all National Rail journeys
within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday, just show your Oyster
card at station gate lines.'

There does seem to be a bit of a disagreement between the SWT site
(basically only valid on routes near LU lines) and the TfL site (valid
everywhere), but I can see no info on the Southern, South Eastern or
FCC sites (I gave up checking after these!!), where there are also LU
lines nearby.

Ah, what delightful confusion. It seems that either SWT or TfL don't
understand what they've agreed upon. I assume that this contingency
plan for Oyster PAYG to be accepted on NR was negotiated some time
ago, presumably between TfL and ATOC acting on behalf of all the
London TOCs - it is after all the 'nuclear option', as it were. If so,
then perhaps there's been some misunderstanding of it after it was
taken off the shelf and dusted off - but if so, is that
misunderstanding SWT's or TfL's part (I'd wager on the former! But
maybe not, and Boris/TfL are chancing/pushing it?).

Alternatively, perhaps the agreement was struck more recently, what
with the threat of a looming strike. (Could it even have been struck
by a Boris administration, aware of the potential of forthcoming
trouble?) If it's been struck more recently, then it's shabby that
they can't sing from teh same hymn sheet.

Regardless, this is a stupid situation - if TfL are proclaiming that,
then SWT can't penalise people for following that advice. If they do,
then there'll be a lot of penalty fares appeals!

FWIW, I can certainly see the logic in restricting the acceptance of
Oyster card holders to only some routes - the Tube network doesn't go
anywhere near Surbiton after all.

Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground –
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go – on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross
Outside these routes the usual ticket restrictions and Penalty Fares
will be applicable as normal.

wrote

Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground -
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go - on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross

------
Unless either TfL, or SWT and Southeastern, change their advice (and in the
case of TfL, publicise any changes very clearly) I can foresee big
arguments.
What about a passenger whose normal route, using PAYG because he only
travels two or three days a week, so a season ticket is uneconomic, is bus
to North Greenwich then Jubilee Line to Bond Street. A sensible alternative
route would be Southeastern from Charlton to Victoria, changing at
Blackheath, then bus or walk. IMHO that route mirrors the passenger's normal
tube route, and even on their restricted view, Southeastern should allow it.

Peter.

On Jun 9, 2:25*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
wrote

Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground -
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go - on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross

------
Unless either TfL, or SWT and Southeastern, change their advice (and in the
case of TfL, publicise any changes very clearly) I can foresee big
arguments.

I couldn't agree more. The TfL website is still showing the following
wording:

"National Rail - Oyster Pay As You Go will be accepted on all National
Rail journeys within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday - just
show your Oyster card at the station gates."

with less than two hours to go until the strike begins.

By contrast with Southeastern, Southern have adopted the 'let TfL sort
it out' approach - I finally managed to find this on their website (at
http://www.southernrailway.com/news....&u=index.php):

"LONDON UNDERGROUND STRIKE ACTION - LATEST

June 2nd 2009

The RMT union has announced strike action on the London Underground
network to commence at 18.59 hours on Tuesday 9 June through to 18.58
hours on Thursday 11 June 2009.

Transport for London has advised that it will do all it can to keep
customers fully informed of the impact of this action but is advising
customers to check its Live Travel News for updates before travelling,
and to use its Journey Planner to plan a possible alternative route.

Travel plans for the strike have been announced by the Mayor of
London. for more details, please go to the Transport for London
website."

SWT are taking a similar tack to Southeastern
(http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/News/
_londonundergroundstrike.htm):

"During this time South West Trains will be accepting all Transport
for London tickets on certain SWT services within the Travelcard
boundary. The services are Feltham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo
via Kew Bridge or via Richmond; and Wimbledon to Clapham Junction and
Waterloo. This includes PAYG and paper tickets.

We shall not be accepting PAYG or paper London Underground tickets at
any other SWT station."

It's going to be an interesting couple of days.

On Jun 9, 4:04*pm, wrote:

On Jun 9, 2:25*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

wrote

Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground -
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go - on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross

------
Unless either TfL, or SWT and Southeastern, change their advice (and in the
case of TfL, publicise any changes very clearly) I can foresee big
arguments.

I couldn't agree more. The TfL website is still showing the following
wording:

"National Rail - Oyster Pay As You Go will be accepted on all National
Rail journeys within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday - just
show your Oyster card at the station gates."

with less than two hours to go until the strike begins.

By contrast with Southeastern, Southern have adopted the 'let TfL sort
it out' approach - I finally managed to find this on their website (at
[mangled URL - see original post] ):

"LONDON UNDERGROUND STRIKE ACTION - LATEST

June 2nd 2009

The RMT union has announced strike action on the London Underground
network to commence at 18.59 hours on Tuesday 9 June through to 18.58
hours on Thursday 11 June 2009.

Transport for London has advised that it will do all it can to keep
customers fully informed of the impact of this action but is advising
customers to check its Live Travel News for updates before travelling,
and to use its Journey Planner to plan a possible alternative route.

Travel plans for the strike have been announced by the Mayor of
London. for more details, please go to the Transport for London
website."

SWT are taking a similar tack to Southeastern
( [mangled URL - see original post] ):

"During this time South West Trains will be accepting all Transport
for London tickets on certain SWT services within the Travelcard
boundary. The services are Feltham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo
via Kew Bridge or via Richmond; and Wimbledon to Clapham Junction and
Waterloo. This includes PAYG and paper tickets.

We shall not be accepting PAYG or paper London Underground tickets at
any other SWT station."

It's going to be an interesting couple of days.

Indeed, though given the pretty unambiguous message that's come from
TfL I doubt any of the TOCs will even try and issue penalty fares.

Who's going to be the guinea pig and try and make journeys from
Surbiton, East Croydon and Bromley South holding only an Oyster card
loaded with a little PAYG credit then?!

On Jun 9, 2:25*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

wrote

Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground -
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go - on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross

------
Unless either TfL, or SWT and Southeastern, change their advice (and in the
case of TfL, publicise any changes very clearly) I can foresee big
arguments.

Absolutely agreed.

What about a passenger whose normal route, using PAYG because he only
travels two or three days a week, so a season ticket is uneconomic, is bus
to North Greenwich then Jubilee Line to Bond Street. A sensible alternative
route would be Southeastern from Charlton to Victoria, changing at
Blackheath, then bus or walk. IMHO that route mirrors the passenger's normal
tube route, and even on their restricted view, Southeastern should allow it.

Also agreed.

I can understand why the TOCs are wary - they don't want to be swamped
with 'freeloaders' simply enjoying/ taking advantage of a couple of
days of totally free rail travel across London by simply waving their
Oyster card around, especially given the extra load they'd be handling
on strike days anyway.

However the situation with regards to the contradictory information is
all pretty silly. I can't see any penalty fares that might be issued
as standing up at all. I suppose the TOCs may simply be trying to
dissuade people from 'taking the mickey'. They've got their bottom
line to look at as well of course.

Peter Masson wrote:

------
Unless either TfL, or SWT and Southeastern, change their advice (and in
the case of TfL, publicise any changes very clearly) I can foresee big
arguments.
What about a passenger whose normal route, using PAYG because he only
travels two or three days a week, so a season ticket is uneconomic, is
bus to North Greenwich then Jubilee Line to Bond Street. A sensible
alternative route would be Southeastern from Charlton to Victoria,
changing at Blackheath, then bus or walk. IMHO that route mirrors the
passenger's normal tube route, and even on their restricted view,
Southeastern should allow it.

Peter.



BBCTravelWatch (via Twitter) are pretty adamant that TfL are sticking to
the 'valid all over' line:

'#Strike: One hour folks... spoke to TfL over the oyster PAYG issue;
they say SWT and Southeastern's info is out of date oyster WILL be taken'

So there you are. If you get caught, refer the bill to TfL. I'm
half-tempted to take the day off and go riding.

Tom