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Old July 6th 09, 06:27 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy

On Jul 6, 10:44*am, Paul Corfield wrote:
I know some will say "I told you so" but it seems the peak runs on the
South Eastern preview service are proving popular.

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk...items/view/101

"Following the successful launch of the ‘preview’ High Speed services on
Monday 29 June, passenger numbers using the service have required
Southeastern to double the length of the train on some services.

The service has proven so popular with passengers that Southeastern
today were required to double the length of the 0748 from Ashford
International to St Pancras and the 1737 from St Pancras International
to Ashford International from six to 12 cars." *[more in press release]

It'll be interesting to see if the "preview service" expands before
December.

--
Paul C


Do fares for these services carry a premium? If so it may indicate
that some passengers are prepared to pay more for a markedly improved
service. That certainly used to be the case. Think Pullman cars on
the Metropolitan.


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Old July 7th 09, 01:40 AM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy

1506 wrote in news:a52f7c74-0f0e-4166-92a7-
:

Do fares for these services carry a premium?


Yes.

Ashford to London single £26.60 on HS1 (£17.50 regular).

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk...pages/view/325
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Old July 7th 09, 10:35 AM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy


"James Farrar" wrote in message
. 1.4...
1506 wrote in news:a52f7c74-0f0e-4166-92a7-
:

Do fares for these services carry a premium?


Yes.

Ashford to London single £26.60 on HS1 (£17.50 regular).

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk...pages/view/325


Wrong James.

You have compared the Anytime single fare with supplement to the Offpeak
single without.

The correct comparison is £26.60 (£22.20 regular). The Ashford supplement
being £4.40 peak single. There are no offpeak single fares or supplements
shown for Ashford yet, as the preview service is peak only (so far).

However there are off peak versions of the supplements for Ebbsfleet where
there are already all day HS1 services.

Paul S



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Old July 7th 09, 08:09 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy

"Paul Scott" wrote in
:


"James Farrar" wrote in message
. 1.4...
1506 wrote in
news:a52f7c74-0f0e-4166-92a7-
:

Do fares for these services carry a premium?


Yes.

Ashford to London single £26.60 on HS1 (£17.50 regular).

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk...pages/view/325


Wrong James.

You have compared the Anytime single fare with supplement to the
Offpeak single without.


OK, oops. But there's still a premium, even if I overstated its amount.
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Old July 8th 09, 07:57 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy

On Jul 7, 1:09*pm, James Farrar wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote :





"James Farrar" wrote in message
.1.4...
1506 wrote in
news:a52f7c74-0f0e-4166-92a7-
:


Do fares for these services carry a premium?


Yes.


Ashford to London single £26.60 on HS1 (£17.50 regular).


http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk...pages/view/325


Wrong James.


You have compared the Anytime single fare with supplement to the
Offpeak single without.


OK, oops. But there's still a premium, even if I overstated its amount.


None-the-less, I think this may indicate a way forward for suburban
rail development. It seems that the market will pay more for a
superior product.



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Old July 9th 09, 08:14 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy

On 8 July, 20:57, 1506 wrote:
On Jul 7, 1:09*pm, James Farrar wrote:



"Paul Scott" wrote :


"James Farrar" wrote in message
.1.4...
1506 wrote in
news:a52f7c74-0f0e-4166-92a7-
:


Do fares for these services carry a premium?


Yes.


Ashford to London single £26.60 on HS1 (£17.50 regular).


http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk...pages/view/325


Wrong James.


You have compared the Anytime single fare with supplement to the
Offpeak single without.


OK, oops. But there's still a premium, even if I overstated its amount.


None-the-less, I think this may indicate a way forward for suburban
rail development. *It seems that the market will pay more for a
superior product.


Remember, if you live in Ashford and work in London, chances a

a) you have kids
b) you have a fairly decent job

If someone offered you an extra 2 hours (approx?) every day to spend
with your kids or playing 5-a-side or lying in bed in the morning (or
whatever the hell you do with your spare time....), and all it cost
you was £8 (approx?) a day, you'd do it, right? Who wouldn't?

Just £4.40 for an extra hour in bed every day? Priceless.
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Old July 9th 09, 08:39 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy


On Jul 9, 9:14*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

On 8 July, 20:57, 1506 wrote:

[snip]

None-the-less, I think this may indicate a way forward for suburban
rail development. *It seems that the market will pay more for a
superior product.


Remember, if you live in Ashford and work in London, chances a

a) you have kids
b) you have a fairly decent job

If someone offered you an extra 2 hours (approx?) every day to spend
with your kids or playing 5-a-side or lying in bed in the morning (or
whatever the hell you do with your spare time....), and all it cost
you was £8 (approx?) a day, you'd do it, right? Who wouldn't?

Just £4.40 for an extra hour in bed every day? Priceless.


Agreed - but it's worth bearing in mind that the HS1 line cost
something like £5 billion, which was basically covered by government
loan guarantees to the company that built it, L&CR - loans that the
government eventually decided to write off recently (and by 'write
off' I basically mean 'pay off', by providing state aid to L&CR to
enable them to do so, before then taking ownership of the company with
a view to splitting it up and selling it off later).

I don't quite think the market is prepared to pay the true costs of
such a development - and I don't think the country (in the form of
taxpayers) is willing to pay for it either (at least not again!),
especially if the end result is basically subsidising the lifestyle
choices of the more affluent! Those commuters in and around Ashford
and on the route of SE HS services have got something of a bargain...
especially as their house prices will likely go up as well (as it will
for non-commuters too).

£5 billion can buy a lot of light rail systems, improvements in
suburban rail services and bus services, cycle and walking route
improvements and other more general improvements to towns and cities
that boost the quality of life for all.
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Old July 9th 09, 09:06 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy

1506 wrote:
On Jul 7, 1:09 pm, James Farrar wrote:


OK, oops. But there's still a premium, even if I overstated its
amount.


None-the-less, I think this may indicate a way forward for suburban
rail development. It seems that the market will pay more for a
superior product.


You may have missed it in one of the other threads on the HS1 and its fares,
but even with the supplement Ashford to London via HS1 is still comparably
priced to other similar length journeys on a pence/mile basis. In the final
analysis current 'Southeastern' fares may just have been generally low
compared to other parts of the London commuter area.

Paul


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Old July 9th 09, 09:31 PM posted to misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy

Willms wrote:
Am Thu, 9 Jul 2009 20:39:37 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

If someone offered you an extra 2 hours (approx?) every day to spend
with your kids or playing 5-a-side or lying in bed in the morning (or
whatever the hell you do with your spare time....), and all it cost
you was £8 (approx?) a day, you'd do it, right? Who wouldn't?

Just £4.40 for an extra hour in bed every day? Priceless.

Agreed - but it's worth bearing in mind that the HS1 line cost
something like £5 billion, which was basically covered by government
loan guarantees to the company that built it, L&CR


I don't quite think the market is prepared to pay the true costs of
such a development


hey, man! Do you really suggest that 2 hours extra time for a family
man should be subject to "market forces"?


Depends how many hours extra work the workers-n-peasants have to put in
to subsidise the railway which gives the capitalist extra time with his
family.

And what, if the "market forces" decide that the re-introduction of
slavery would help to increase the profits of the big banks, what
then?


There is a theory that abolition was about perceived inefficiencies and
redeploying the ships on more profitable ventures.


Should "the market" prevail over human beings?

Is this the dragon which ruled over the town and who asked a virgin
sacrified to it every year in order not to destroy town and castle?


But the Virgin was replaced by a bus at weekends.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
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Old July 9th 09, 09:45 PM posted to misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default HS1 Domestic trains are a bit busy


On Jul 9, 10:09*pm, "Willms" wrote:

Am Thu, 9 Jul 2009 20:39:37 UTC, *schrieb Mizter T
*auf uk.railway :

If someone offered you an extra 2 hours (approx?) every day to spend
with your kids or playing 5-a-side or lying in bed in the morning (or
whatever the hell you do with your spare time....), and all it cost
you was £8 (approx?) a day, you'd do it, right? Who wouldn't?


Just £4.40 for an extra hour in bed every day? Priceless.


Agreed - but it's worth bearing in mind that the HS1 line cost
something like £5 billion, which was basically covered by government
loan guarantees to the company that built it, L&CR
I don't quite think the market is prepared to pay the true costs of
such a development


* hey, man! Do you really suggest that 2 hours extra time for a family
man should be subject to "market forces"?

* And what, if the "market forces" decide that the re-introduction of
slavery would help to increase the profits of the big banks, what
then?

* Should "the market" prevail over human beings?

* Is this the dragon which ruled over the town and who asked a virgin
sacrified to it every year in order not to destroy town and castle?


Luko, did you even read my whole post? I was suggesting that I don't
think people are really going to be willing to subsidise the
construction of very expensive new high-speed lines which benefit
already affluent commuters so as to enable them to make 100 mile plus
daily journeys. Of course, inevitably any new high-speed line would
increase the incidence of long-distance commuting , it's an inevitable
by-product - but specifically designing and constructing such lines
for commuting purposes isn't on (and of course is never going to
happen). Instead I'd be in favour of spending some of that money to
help all the family men and women who already live in towns and
cities, and to encourage families to live in the towns and cities in
which members of that family work, etc etc etc.

Before blundering in and criticising my comments, I suggest you
acquaint yourself with some of the basics with regards to the
Southeastern Highspeed service (which I've abbreviated as SE HS, and
also is/ has been called "CTRL-DS", "Kent domestics" and other
permutations thereof - and is sometimes erroneously called "Javelin")
- there's some information on the Southeastern website he
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk....php/highspeed

Some of the people using SE HS could indeed have 2 or more extra hours
of family time if they (a) lived in London or (b) worked nearer where
they live and earnt less. That's simplifying things dramatically of
course, and there's an awful lot of different factors at play here
with regards to careers, lifestyles, quality of life (or at least
perceived quality of life), schooling etc etc - but people already
make these decisions, and one of the things on their calculus is
family time and to what extent they are prepared to play that off
against other factors such as career building or earning potential.

I'm not making massive definitive judgements on all these various
factors one way or the other, though I do have some thoughts on them -
but if someone was to propose an expensive new high-speed line from
Brighton to London (again a distance of about 50 miles) just to make
life easier for commuters, I'm not going to be there at the front of
the line campaigning in favour of it!

(Come to think of it, didn't the Brighton mainline RUS recently
pondered on some fairly radical/ 'way-out' ideas about tunnels to take
fast trains from Croydon under built up south London into central
London... not quite the same thing as a new high-speed line, but not
totally disconnected either.)


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