On Jul 12, 3:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 12, 3:10*pm, Andy wrote:





On Jul 12, 11:55*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 9:37*pm, Andy wrote:

[snip]

Just to point out that the "maximum cash fare" is different when using
National Rail and here £6.50 is charged upon entry to the system, with
correction to the 'real' Oyster fare upon exit. This is less than the
maximum cash fare for Watford Junction - Euston.

"Here" being Watford Junction, right? And you're absolutely sure of
that?

Actually, the TfL site says any National Rail location on the list
given he

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

Thanks for the heads up on that Andy - I hadn't seen the changed
wording on that page. For the record, the relevant bit now says:
---quote---
If you use pay as you go on the above National Rail services, an entry
charge of up to £6.50 will be deducted from your Oyster card when you
touch in at the start of your journey. When you touch out, the charge
will be adjusted so that you only pay the advertised Oyster single
fare for the journey you have just made.
---/quote---

Compare and contrast it to what it said back in February '08 via the
Internet Archive:http://web.archive.org/web/200802121.....gov.uk/ticke...
or via http://tinyurl.com/q95jk2





If it is indeed so, then that's an interesting development. The 'entry
charge' at NR termini stations where Oyster PAYG was accepted set at
£5 (as opposed to £4) some while back - this is justified as follows:
"The £5 represents the average National Rail cash single fare paid for
a journey in Greater London from these stations."
Source:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...ion.do?entityN....

I can't find anything specific to Watford Jn in the 'Oyster Common
Questions' database. However, it would make *sense in that otherwise
one could get a cheaper journey by simply not touching out at Euston
(as some trains arrive at ungated platforms) and therefore only being
charged £4 (the peak PAYG fare being £6, off-peak it's £3.50).

The fact it's £6.50 as opposed to the current NR single fare of £7.80
doesn't invalidate the principle - it's less rather than more, after
all. I dare say it might be set at 50p more (rather than £1.80 more)
than the peak PAYG fare to alleviate aggro, whilst providing enough of
an incentive to touch-out properly.

(I'm wondering if the 'entry charge' at Watford Jn might drop from
£6.50 to a lower amount - say the normal £4 - after 0930, when off-
peak PAYG fares come into effect?)

I'm always a bit suspicious of using old FAQ links on the TfL website,
as they can be out of date. The link I've given clearly says that the
£6.50 will be deducted upon entry to any of the NR PAYG routes and
adjusted when touching out. Watford Junction will always be a bit of a
special case, being the only location outside the zones at the moment.

The FAQ on the TfL site was one that I'd looked up especially when
composing the above post, so it wasn't an old saved URL as such -
though the information in the answer is clearly out-of-date now. (The
reason why the URL didn't work by the way is that the new FAQ system
is now browser session based.)


Sorry, I meant a link to a FAQ where the information might be old, not
that the link itself was old

I do nonetheless wonder if the 'entry charge' at Watford Jn doesn't
change between peak and off-peak periods. A bit of a waste of money
experimenting to find out (that I'm wrong) of course!


That's how I read it, the charge upon entry at any National Rail
Oyster validator / gateline will always be £6.50, but the amount
refunded upon exit will depend on time of the initial validation and
the location.

As you say, Watford Jn will always be a special case... at least,
until the possible future inclusion of any other stations just beyond
the zones! However, that's unlikely - the Watford Jn situation only
happened because LO reaches out there, and TfL effectively forced LM's
hand into accepting Oyster PAYG (LM didn't have an awful lot of choice
in the matter really!).


It did take them a few weeks to realise this though, especially as
Southern were in it from day 1 from Watford - Clapham.

I assume the entry charge went up to £6.50 at the behest of LM, so as
to put a stop to what was likely going on last year, where some pax
had surely realised last year that the £5 charge for an unresolved
peak journey was less than the peak fare for the journey (which was
£5.50 IIRC).


Quite probably, it may also be a realisation that the entry charge
would need to go up in other spots, by the time PAYG is rolled out on
all National Rail routes. The paper NR peak fare from zone 6 to zone 1
is already £5.00 and any fare rise would mean the entry charge would
have to increase.

I'd guess that LM would also have been quite happy that the PAYG peak
time was shifted back half-an-hour from 0700 to 0630 (meaning only the
05:50 and 05:59 WFJ to EUS get in under the wire).

On Jul 12, 4:18*pm, MIG wrote:

On 12 July, 16:06, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 12, 2:40*pm, MIG wrote:

[snip]

How are LU fare rises regulated?

I don't think they are subject to regulation as such - see my reply
to, er, well, myself, but ultimately it was a reply to you, upthread -
it's the one that was posted at 4:03pm.-

Yes, thanks. *I guess I was being a bit wishful, although maybe trial
by Evening Standard is tougher than regulation.

Possibly so... though the last trial by Evening Standard did result in
a Mayor who put the prices up, and ejected one who was keen to keep
prices down (excepting cash fares of course!). Though to be fair a
continuing Ken Mayoralty would have been subject to similar fiscal
pressures (the recession, Crossrail, the Metronet collapse, impending
cutbacks by central government) - but he didn't have the commitment to
reducing the GLA precept on the council tax that Boris has.

" wrote in
:

Where, on entry to the system, am I told that I will be subject to a
penalty if I don't exit the system within a period of time?

Your use of the phrase "on entry to the system" seems a deliberate
attempt to avoid the truth: it's in the Conditions of Carriage:

6.7.3. Paying as you go on the Underground

[...]

Your pay as you go journey must be completed by touching out at the end
of your journey within a time limit from when you touched in at the start
of your journey. The time limit varies between 70 minutes for the
shortest journeys Monday to Friday up to 4 hours for some longer journeys
on Sundays. If the time between touching in and touching out at the end
of your journey is more than the time limit you will be charged more than
the Oyster single fare for your journey. If this happens, you will need
to call the Oyster helpline so that they may, depending on the
explanation given for the journey having taken longer than the time
limit, refund any over-payment.

Page 18: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...7_May_2009.pdf

On Jul 12, 7:34*pm, James Farrar wrote:

" wrote:

Where, on entry to the system, am I told that I will be subject to a
penalty if I don't exit the system within a period of time?

Your use of the phrase "on entry to the system" seems a deliberate
attempt to avoid the truth: it's in the Conditions of Carriage:

6.7.3. Paying as you go on the Underground

[...]

Your pay as you go journey must be completed by touching out at the end
of your journey within a time limit from when you touched in at the start
of your journey. The time limit varies between 70 minutes for the
shortest journeys Monday to Friday up to 4 hours for some longer journeys
on Sundays. If the time between touching in and touching out at the end
of your journey is more than the time limit you will be charged more than
the Oyster single fare for your journey. If this happens, you will need
to call the Oyster helpline so that they may, depending on the
explanation given for the journey having taken longer than the time
limit, refund any over-payment.

Page 18:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...7_May_2009.pdf

Thanks for digging that out James, I really should have made the
effort to take a look a bit earlier. It is, as you say, all in the
CoC. I'm sure people will take issue with the vagueness of how the
time limit is expressed.

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:36:21 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:
See both MIG's reply to the above, and my reply to 'Just zis Guy'
downthread.

Which are duly noted and most informative, thanks.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 9:37*pm, Andy wrote:
Just to point out that the "maximum cash fare" is different when using
National Rail and here £6.50 is charged upon entry to the system, with
correction to the 'real' Oyster fare upon exit. This is less than the
maximum cash fare for Watford Junction - Euston.

"Here" being Watford Junction, right? And you're absolutely sure of
that?

If it is indeed so, then that's an interesting development. The 'entry
charge' at NR termini stations where Oyster PAYG was accepted set at
£5 (as opposed to £4) some while back - this is justified as follows:
"The £5 represents the average National Rail cash single fare paid for
a journey in Greater London from these stations."
Source:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...entityNum=3315

I can't find anything specific to Watford Jn in the 'Oyster Common
Questions' database. However, it would make sense in that otherwise
one could get a cheaper journey by simply not touching out at Euston
(as some trains arrive at ungated platforms) and therefore only being
charged £4 (the peak PAYG fare being £6, off-peak it's £3.50).

The fact it's £6.50 as opposed to the current NR single fare of £7.80
doesn't invalidate the principle - it's less rather than more, after
all. I dare say it might be set at 50p more (rather than £1.80 more)
than the peak PAYG fare to alleviate aggro, whilst providing enough of
an incentive to touch-out properly.

(I'm wondering if the 'entry charge' at Watford Jn might drop from
£6.50 to a lower amount - say the normal £4 - after 0930, when off-
peak PAYG fares come into effect?)

Yes it does. IIRC Peak time entry into WJ is 6.50. Peak time entry in to
Euston NR is 5.00[1]. Offpeak entry into WJ is 4.00, Offpeak entry into
Euston NR is 5.00.

[1] I do this one extremely rarely so if it's changed in the last
umpteen months then I wouldn't have noticed. The other three I've done
in the last couple of days.

Tim.



--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 07:47:30 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:
I'd guess that LM would also have been quite happy that the PAYG peak
time was shifted back half-an-hour from 0700 to 0630 (meaning only the
05:50 and 05:59 WFJ to EUS get in under the wire).

???

06:19 and 06:29 (and even 06:33 according to the journey planner
although that's not a train I've every caught and I didn't know it
existed)

(obviously you have to touch in at 06:29 to get the cheap journey)

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Jul 13, 1:09*am, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 07:47:30 -0700 (PDT),
* * Mizter T wrote:

I'd guess that LM would also have been quite happy that the PAYG peak
time was shifted back half-an-hour from 0700 to 0630 (meaning only the
05:50 and 05:59 WFJ to EUS get in under the wire).

???

06:19 and 06:29 (and even 06:33 according to the journey planner
although that's not a train I've every caught and I didn't know it
existed)

(obviously you have to touch in at 06:29 to get the cheap journey)

Balls. My apologies, you're quite right. And I'm sure I've made this
mistake before. For some reason I've got it in my head that to benefit
from the off-peak fare, you have to finish the journey before peak
time kicks in. But this is wrong, and I know it!

I'm not really a mad keen early bird, but when I've needed to be I'll
likely have been on the bus (v. quick early in the morn), or else the
bicycle or possibly the train. When I've been on the Tube early doors
I'll have either have had a Travelcard (in which case PAYG fares are
irrelevant), or else simply not paying much attention!

On Jul 13, 1:02*am, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT),
* * Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 9:37*pm, Andy wrote:
Just to point out that the "maximum cash fare" is different when using
National Rail and here £6.50 is charged upon entry to the system, with
correction to the 'real' Oyster fare upon exit. This is less than the
maximum cash fare for Watford Junction - Euston.

"Here" being Watford Junction, right? And you're absolutely sure of
that?

If it is indeed so, then that's an interesting development. The 'entry
charge' at NR termini stations where Oyster PAYG was accepted set at
£5 (as opposed to £4) some while back - this is justified as follows:
"The £5 represents the average National Rail cash single fare paid for
a journey in Greater London from these stations."
Source:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...ion.do?entityN....

I can't find anything specific to Watford Jn in the 'Oyster Common
Questions' database. However, it would make *sense in that otherwise
one could get a cheaper journey by simply not touching out at Euston
(as some trains arrive at ungated platforms) and therefore only being
charged £4 (the peak PAYG fare being £6, off-peak it's £3.50).

The fact it's £6.50 as opposed to the current NR single fare of £7.80
doesn't invalidate the principle - it's less rather than more, after
all. I dare say it might be set at 50p more (rather than £1.80 more)
than the peak PAYG fare to alleviate aggro, whilst providing enough of
an incentive to touch-out properly.

(I'm wondering if the 'entry charge' at Watford Jn might drop from
£6.50 to a lower amount - say the normal £4 - after 0930, when off-
peak PAYG fares come into effect?)

Yes it does. IIRC Peak time entry into WJ is 6.50. Peak time entry in to
Euston NR is 5.00[1]. Offpeak entry into WJ is 4.00, Offpeak entry into
Euston NR is 5.00.

[1] I do this one extremely rarely so if it's changed in the last
umpteen months then I wouldn't have noticed. The other three I've done
in the last couple of days.

Thanks v much for the eyewitness report Tim. I couldn't quite work out
how a £6.50 'entry charge' (and hence unresolved journey charge) could
possibly be justified across all NR stations, given the logic that
it's supposed to (vaguely) represents some sort of average fare paid
from the NR station in question. So the 'entry charge' does in fact
vary both by location and by time.