I currently have an annual travelcard for Zones 2,3,4,5 and travel
between Harrow on the Hill and Highbury & Islington, using the North
London Line from West Hampstead or Finchley and Frognal. I understand
the idea that the Oyster will be "clever" and deduct credit if I go
into Zone 1 but if I beep my new Oyster in at Highbury, there is no
NLL to beep in out of, beep it in at West Hampstead Jubilee and out
at Harrow Met, how will it know I have used the North London Line?
Will it assume I have gone via Kings Cross and charge me an extension
ticket. Alternatively, if I am going via central London (if I miss a
NLL or it's late) and I go via Kings Cross will I get charged twice as
I go through 2 sets of barriers - Higbury to Kings Cross and Kings
Cross to Harrow?

"Jim" wrote in message
...

the idea that the Oyster will be "clever"

That's the plan. Whether the software programmers have been clever enough
remains to be seen!

if I beep my new Oyster in at Highbury, there is no
NLL to beep in out of, beep it in at West Hampstead Jubilee and out
at Harrow Met, how will it know I have used the North London Line?

Does Finchley Road and Frognal not have Oyster pads?

Will it assume I have gone via Kings Cross and charge me an extension
ticket. Alternatively, if I am going via central London (if I miss a
NLL or it's late) and I go via Kings Cross will I get charged twice as
I go through 2 sets of barriers - Higbury to Kings Cross and Kings
Cross to Harrow?

Places like Kings Cross already recognise "out of station interchange" for
magnetic tickets, so it *should* be the same.

It's going to be a case of try it and see what happens I'm afraid. You can
check what journeys you have been charged for yourself using one of the
large self service ticket machines.

In article ,
(Robin Mayes) wrote:

Places like Kings Cross already recognise "out of station interchange"
for magnetic tickets, so it *should* be the same.

One of the objectives of the expansion of Kings Cross St Pancras is to get
rid of this, AIUI.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:27:09 +0000, Jim wrote:

I currently have an annual travelcard for Zones 2,3,4,5 and travel
between Harrow on the Hill and Highbury & Islington, using the North
London Line from West Hampstead or Finchley and Frognal. I understand
the idea that the Oyster will be "clever" and deduct credit if I go
into Zone 1 but if I beep my new Oyster in at Highbury, there is no
NLL to beep in out of, beep it in at West Hampstead Jubilee and out
at Harrow Met, how will it know I have used the North London Line?

But if you are a Travelcard holder you do not *need* to beep in and out
in order for value to be deducted (because no value is deducted) when
you are travelling inside your zones. If such a rule was in place then I
agree that every National Rail station in London would have to have
readers but they do not.

Your example shows that you have a valid ticket for your whole trip -
you will enter a gate at Harrow, exit at West Hampstead, pop across the
road and just walk in, catch your NLL train and exit at Highbury. One
trip is recorded for the Tube but the gate at Highbury will simply let
you exit without doing anything to your Oyster Card - simply because
your ticket is valid at Highbury! It is entirely possible to end up at
Highbury gateline having used all sorts of bits of National Rail
services and buses between West Hampstead and Highbury - all of which
are valid trips on a 2-5 Travelcard.

Will it assume I have gone via Kings Cross and charge me an extension
ticket. Alternatively, if I am going via central London (if I miss a
NLL or it's late) and I go via Kings Cross will I get charged twice as
I go through 2 sets of barriers - Higbury to Kings Cross and Kings
Cross to Harrow?

If you go this way then you will be charged because you hit a gateline
twice. However the technology is clever enough to ensure you only get
charged once from your pre-pay part of your card for a trip via Zone 1.
I did some of the early thinking on how the system logic would work via
this sort of interchange.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 08:41:09 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:27:09 +0000, Jim wrote:

I currently have an annual travelcard for Zones 2,3,4,5 and travel
between Harrow on the Hill and Highbury & Islington, using the North
London Line from West Hampstead or Finchley and Frognal. I understand
the idea that the Oyster will be "clever" and deduct credit if I go
into Zone 1 but if I beep my new Oyster in at Highbury, there is no
NLL to beep in out of, beep it in at West Hampstead Jubilee and out
at Harrow Met, how will it know I have used the North London Line?
Your example shows that you have a valid ticket for your whole trip -

you will enter a gate at Harrow, exit at West Hampstead, pop across the
road and just walk in, catch your NLL train and exit at Highbury. One
trip is recorded for the Tube but the gate at Highbury will simply let
you exit without doing anything to your Oyster Card - simply because
your ticket is valid at Highbury!

Doing this I've managed to record a journey from Colindale to
Finchley Central on a zone 4 only travelcard (I also had a single
but I didn't put that in the barrir) so it really doesn't care about
route.

David

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

However the technology is clever enough to ensure you only get
charged once from your pre-pay part of your card for a trip via Zone 1.

But are the programmers clever enough to implement it properly?

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:53:05 -0000, "Robin Mayes"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

However the technology is clever enough to ensure you only get
charged once from your pre-pay part of your card for a trip via Zone 1.

But are the programmers clever enough to implement it properly?

actually I think they are. I remember the huge debates we had about how
things would work and the clever questions and scenarios that were put
forward to ensure that we'd covered every eventuality. Oh and I met the
person doing the testing the other morning and he said the Kings Cross
situation worked OK :-)

I know there is a huge amount of cynicism about pre-pay and the non
appearance of some functionality at this time. The point people seem to
forget is that the fare system is very complex because it has developed
over a long period of time. To suggest a complete overhaul in one go (as
some have done) would be madness as you risk creating chaos and mass
confusion. You are also likely to disadvantage people and they will be
upset by that. Finally some aspects of the system are "fixed" in that
they are enshrined in LUL / TOC agreements that are not easy to change.

While I do understand why people are disappointed I would much prefer a
situation whereby the system is implemented incrementally in a way the
travelling public and staff can follow. There is nothing worse than
making a change that involves people's money and finding it doesn't
quite work - as an organisation you will be vilified in the press and
face a barrage of (legitimate) complaints. LUL hardly needs any more
public vilification now does it?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

But are the programmers clever enough to implement it properly?

actually I think they are. I remember the huge debates we had about how
things would work and the clever questions and scenarios that were put
forward to ensure that we'd covered every eventuality. Oh and I met the
person doing the testing the other morning and he said the Kings Cross
situation worked OK :-)

Yes, out of station interchanges work okay.


I know there is a huge amount of cynicism about pre-pay and the non
appearance of some functionality at this time. The point people seem to
forget is that the fare system is very complex because it has developed
over a long period of time. To suggest a complete overhaul in one go (as
some have done) would be madness as you risk creating chaos and mass
confusion. You are also likely to disadvantage people and they will be
upset by that. Finally some aspects of the system are "fixed" in that
they are enshrined in LUL / TOC agreements that are not easy to change.

The new fare structure, different prices depending if you have an Oyster
pre-pay or not, different prices for weekends is coming close to the "super
saver valid only on the third thursday of every other month" scenario! There
were plans for the fare structure to be simplified too.

While I do understand why people are disappointed I would much prefer a
situation whereby the system is implemented incrementally in a way the
travelling public and staff can follow. There is nothing worse than
making a change that involves people's money and finding it doesn't
quite work - as an organisation you will be vilified in the press and
face a barrage of (legitimate) complaints. LUL hardly needs any more
public vilification now does it?

But the incremental implementation is causing more confusion! I suggest you
read traffic circular 48 onwards, where Oyster related items are being
changed weekly! Consider the effect that the information in the staff
"briefings"are changing all the time has. We're supposed to be able to
answer customers' queries straight away, without having to wade through
several issues looking for the latest update. I'm very concerned that there
hasn't been enough "awareness campaigns" done to ensure those who would like
to use pre-pay are fully aware that they need to touch the card on a reader
when exiting and the lack of fare-capping will result with people being
charged too much. Perhaps we're looking at this from different viewpoints
though.

In message , Robin Mayes
writes

But the incremental implementation is causing more confusion! I suggest you
read traffic circular 48 onwards, where Oyster related items are being
changed weekly! Consider the effect that the information in the staff
"briefings"are changing all the time has. We're supposed to be able to
answer customers' queries straight away, without having to wade through
several issues looking for the latest update. I'm very concerned that there
hasn't been enough "awareness campaigns" done to ensure those who would like
to use pre-pay are fully aware that they need to touch the card on a reader
when exiting and the lack of fare-capping will result with people being
charged too much. Perhaps we're looking at this from different viewpoints
though.


The only customer education I've seen so far consists of tiny stickers
to go somewhere on the gates...
With only five days to go, I hope there's going to be a bit more than
that.
--
Kat Reality is the leading cause of stress among those in touch with it.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:25:16 -0000, "Robin Mayes"
wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

While I do understand why people are disappointed I would much prefer a
situation whereby the system is implemented incrementally in a way the
travelling public and staff can follow. There is nothing worse than
making a change that involves people's money and finding it doesn't
quite work - as an organisation you will be vilified in the press and
face a barrage of (legitimate) complaints. LUL hardly needs any more
public vilification now does it?

But the incremental implementation is causing more confusion! I suggest you
read traffic circular 48 onwards, where Oyster related items are being
changed weekly! Consider the effect that the information in the staff
"briefings"are changing all the time has. We're supposed to be able to
answer customers' queries straight away, without having to wade through
several issues looking for the latest update. I'm very concerned that there
hasn't been enough "awareness campaigns" done to ensure those who would like
to use pre-pay are fully aware that they need to touch the card on a reader
when exiting and the lack of fare-capping will result with people being
charged too much. Perhaps we're looking at this from different viewpoints
though.

Well we do get the TC in my office and I have had a look at various bits
and bobs. I don't read it every week so hadn't appreciate the "moving
feast" but it had registered that it was happening from comments on this
group.

I'm trying to track down a copy of the fares revision supplement so I
can really try to see what is supposed to happen though.

There are posters on display at Walthamstow Central advising pre-pay
users of the need to validate on exit or be overcharged.

I don't think we are looking at it from different viewpoints. In my old
role I was shouted at and abused by ticket office staff while making
presentations on various ticketing matters. I know it is a very
stressful job working in a ticket office with constant questions and
never ending queues. I therefore appreciate the importance of staff
getting the correct information on something as new as Oyster in a
readily understood way. Regrettably it looks like that is not being
achieved with the pre-pay facility. I think I am pleased I don't work in
a ticket office - perhaps I should volunteer to be an Oyster Helper for
next week? :-)) At Mile End and then I can wave at Kat and she can
laugh at me for getting shouted at by our customers!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!