I mentioned this in another thread here (which I can't find), but it's
happened again...

Just back from a recent trip to London, I noticed the balance was £8
less than it should have been. Looked on a ticket machine which stated
I'd done the journey:
"Heron Quays DLR - Unfinished
Unstarted - Woolwich Arsenal"

Every single trip to London I have done something similar to this has
happened and on every occasion it has involved the DLR at Canary Wharf
or Heron Quays.

On Jul 9, 12:02*am, Commuter wrote:
I mentioned this in another thread here (which I can't find), but it's
happened again...

Just back from a recent trip to London, I noticed the balance was £8
less than it should have been. Looked on a ticket machine which stated
I'd done the journey:
"Heron Quays DLR - Unfinished
* Unstarted - Woolwich Arsenal"

Every single trip to London I have done something similar to this has
happened and on every occasion it has involved the DLR at Canary Wharf
or Heron Quays.

You're going to have to provide more comprehensive information about
what journeys you made if we're going to try and fathom this out.

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:02:55 +0100
Commuter wrote:


I mentioned this in another thread here (which I can't find), but it's
happened again...

Just back from a recent trip to London, I noticed the balance was £8
less than it should have been. Looked on a ticket machine which stated
I'd done the journey:
"Heron Quays DLR - Unfinished
Unstarted - Woolwich Arsenal"

Every single trip to London I have done something similar to this has
happened and on every occasion it has involved the DLR at Canary Wharf
or Heron Quays.

Oyster is little more than a money making exercise. If they can get away
with stiffing you for a shed load of cash and with flimsey excuse to back
it up they will.

You may be interested to know that if you enter a station, but have to leave
again for whatever reason, you'll be charged 1.10 for the priviledge even
though you haven't travelled anywhere. Nice eh? They could easily program
the gates not to take money if its obvious the person has been nowhere,
but no, they decided to extract the cash because they can, probably hoping
most people won't notice its been taken. I did and went to the ticket office
and complained until they refunded it.

B2003

On Jul 9, 9:43 am, wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:02:55 +0100

Commuter wrote:

I mentioned this in another thread here (which I can't find), but it's
happened again...

Just back from a recent trip to London, I noticed the balance was £8
less than it should have been. Looked on a ticket machine which stated
I'd done the journey:
"Heron Quays DLR - Unfinished
Unstarted - Woolwich Arsenal"

Every single trip to London I have done something similar to this has
happened and on every occasion it has involved the DLR at Canary Wharf
or Heron Quays.

Oyster is little more than a money making exercise. If they can get away
with stiffing you for a shed load of cash and with flimsey excuse to back
it up they will.

Which is the standard moronic response when someone encounters an
issue with Oyster. There will be an explanation for this - likely to
do with Out-of-Station-Interchange (OSI) issues - but as the OP hasn't
provided any detailed information it's nigh-on impossible to make a
diagnoses.


You may be interested to know that if you enter a station, but have to leave
again for whatever reason, you'll be charged 1.10 for the priviledge even
though you haven't travelled anywhere. Nice eh? They could easily program
the gates not to take money if its obvious the person has been nowhere,
but no, they decided to extract the cash because they can, probably hoping
most people won't notice its been taken. I did and went to the ticket office
and complained until they refunded it.

And there's a very simple explanation for this - it stops people
working the system. If the gates were configured so as to charge
nothing when this happened (more precisely, refund the entry charge in
its entirety), then people would touch-in to enter through a gate,
then touch-out on an exit gate but instead of exiting they'd continue
on and catch a train - voila, they've got into the system for nothing.
The same could happen on the way out, though they'd need to reach over
and touch-in on an entry gate before touching-out on an exit gate.

Don't think that this wouldn't happen - especially when one bears in
mind that one or the other end of their journey might not be gated at
all (e.g. a National Rail station on a line that offers in-station
interchange with the Underground).

And if it was configured as you suggest, and you saw people scamming
it, you'd be the first to come on here and rant about 'the idiots at
TfL who couldn't see this coming' (you just know you would be!).

It's perhaps worth comparing this situation to that if you were using
a paper Tube ticket, which you would have had to buy before you
entered the gate to get into the station. (FWIW, I'm sure I read
somewhere that Tube ticket offices do/ are permitted to/ are supposed
to refund the fare should a passenger enter and then exit the station
without travelling.)

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 04:05:29 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
Which is the standard moronic response when someone encounters an
issue with Oyster. There will be an explanation for this - likely to

And yours is the stand Tfl Apologists moronic response. Or course theres
an explanation for it - money.

And there's a very simple explanation for this - it stops people
working the system. If the gates were configured so as to charge
nothing when this happened (more precisely, refund the entry charge in
its entirety), then people would touch-in to enter through a gate,
then touch-out on an exit gate but instead of exiting they'd continue
on and catch a train - voila, they've got into the system for nothing.
The same could happen on the way out, though they'd need to reach over
and touch-in on an entry gate before touching-out on an exit gate.

So the ordinary passenger gets screwed on the off chance of a scam. Figures.
In that case it wouldn't have killed them to make the gates flash up a
message or beep loudly so at least the person was made aware of the fact
that they just been stiffed. But no, they'd collect less money that way
in the same way they NEVER advertise the refund service on posters or on
tannoy because they don't want anyone to know about it.

Don't think that this wouldn't happen - especially when one bears in
mind that one or the other end of their journey might not be gated at
all (e.g. a National Rail station on a line that offers in-station
interchange with the Underground).

Well in that case its already happening since people will touch in and out and
pay 1.10 instead of whatever the full fare would be.

And if it was configured as you suggest, and you saw people scamming
it, you'd be the first to come on here and rant about 'the idiots at
TfL who couldn't see this coming' (you just know you would be!).

Unlikely.

It's perhaps worth comparing this situation to that if you were using
a paper Tube ticket, which you would have had to buy before you

The difference is that no one would be dumb enough to put a single fare
paper ticket into the gate to get out again because they'd know it would
be swallowed. They'd ask the guy at the window and explain the situation.

B2003

On Jul 9, 12:18*pm, wrote:
The difference is that no one would be dumb enough to put a single fare
paper ticket into the gate to get out again because they'd know it would
be swallowed. They'd ask the guy at the window and explain the situation.

Quite. One might have thought that no-one would be dumb enough to do
the same with Oyster, but rather would ask the guy at the window and
explain the situation.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Jul 9, 12:18*pm, wrote:

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 04:05:29 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
Which is the standard moronic response when someone encounters an
issue with Oyster. There will be an explanation for this - likely to

And yours is the stand Tfl Apologists moronic response. Or course theres
an explanation for it - money.

I'm sorry, you're absolutely right - the system was designed from day
one to scam passengers. There can be no other explanation for it,
because Boltar has spoken.


And there's a very simple explanation for this - it stops people
working the system. If the gates were configured so as to charge
nothing when this happened (more precisely, refund the entry charge in
its entirety), then people would touch-in to enter through a gate,
then touch-out on an exit gate but instead of exiting they'd continue
on and catch a train - voila, they've got into the system for nothing.
The same could happen on the way out, though they'd need to reach over
and touch-in on an entry gate before touching-out on an exit gate.

So the ordinary passenger gets screwed on the off chance of a scam. Figures.
In that case it wouldn't have killed them to make the gates flash up a
message or beep loudly so at least the person was made aware of the fact
that they just been stiffed. But no, they'd collect less money that way
in the same way they NEVER advertise the refund service on posters or on
tannoy because they don't want anyone to know about it.

The fact that refunds are available for erroneous Oyster charges is no
secret at all, it is mentioned in plenty of TfL publicity and LU staff
will readily refer you to Oyster customer services if you have
concerns about overcharging.


Don't think that this wouldn't happen - especially when one bears in
mind *that one or the other end of their journey might not be gated at
all (e.g. a National Rail station on a line that offers in-station
interchange with the Underground).

Well in that case its already happening since people will touch in and out and
pay 1.10 instead of whatever the full fare would be.

At a guess I'd say it's a compromise arrangement that takes into
account different concerns, e.g. that of deterring misuse of the
system and that of maintaining free flowing movement through gatelines
at stations. The system will be able to note if there are particular
locations where there are lots of entries rapidly followed by exits,
or whether a particular card is found to be entering and then
immediately exiting stations on a regular basis, and then station
staff can be alerted to watch more carefully for this and RPIs can be
deployed to try and catch people in the act (including plain clothes
RPIs).


And if it was configured as you suggest, and you saw people scamming
it, you'd be the first to come on here and rant about 'the idiots at
TfL who couldn't see this coming' (you just know you would be!).

Unlikely.

Why "unlikely"? That's your style after all.


It's perhaps worth comparing this situation to that if you were using
a paper Tube ticket, which you would have had to buy before you

The difference is that no one would be dumb enough to put a single fare
paper ticket into the gate to get out again because they'd know it would
be swallowed. They'd ask the guy at the window and explain the situation.

Yes, but you wouldn't get your money back - and you wouldn't be able
to go off and use that ticket at another station.

Mizter T wrote:
You're going to have to provide more comprehensive information about
what journeys you made if we're going to try and fathom this out.

Well I'd done the journey Heron Quays to Woolwich Arsenal (changing at
Poplar) and touched in at Heron Quays and out at Woolwich Arsenal
(ticket barriers).

From my statement, the journeys before we
"Marble Arch - Tower Hill
Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
Marble Arch - Canary Wharf"

Interesting that it's put Marble Arch - Canary Wharf as two separate
journeys when it was only one, but wasn't charged due to price capping
which had already been reached. (I had done Marble Arch - Canary Wharf
DLR and then entered Canary Wharf LU and exited straight away.

I still can't see how it could have happened. Surely if you have an
unfinished and an unstarted journey then they are the same journey and
should be charged accordingly (due to capping, no price).

On 9 July, 13:26, Commuter wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
You're going to have to provide more comprehensive information about
what journeys you made if we're going to try and fathom this out.

Well I'd done the journey Heron Quays to Woolwich Arsenal (changing at
Poplar) and touched in at Heron Quays and out at Woolwich Arsenal
(ticket barriers).

*From my statement, the journeys before we
"Marble Arch - Tower Hill
* Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
* Marble Arch - Canary Wharf"

Interesting that it's put Marble Arch - Canary Wharf as two separate
journeys when it was only one, but wasn't charged due to price capping
which had already been reached. (I had done Marble Arch - Canary Wharf
DLR and then entered Canary Wharf LU and exited straight away.

I still can't see how it could have happened. Surely if you have an
unfinished and an unstarted journey then they are the same journey and
should be charged accordingly (due to capping, no price).

How long did you spend at Canary Wharf? I assume you got there via
Jubilee and touched out at the Jubilee station.

So the issue may be around whether it was taken as one long
interchange and timed you out for the overall journey.

In that case it would mean that it took Heron Quays as the start of
the last leg (rather than the start of the journey) and that the
journey was unfinished because the time from Marble Arch to Woolwich
Arsenal was more than two hours (or the time limit at the time) more
likely if there is a particularly generous interchange time allowed at
Canary Wharf/Heron Quays.

The statement is weird, but I think it's been established that
inaccuracy in the statement doesn't necessarily imply inaccuracy in
the calculation of fares.

On Jul 9, 1:26*pm, Commuter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
You're going to have to provide more comprehensive information about
what journeys you made if we're going to try and fathom this out.

Well I'd done the journey Heron Quays to Woolwich Arsenal (changing at
Poplar) and touched in at Heron Quays and out at Woolwich Arsenal
(ticket barriers).

*From my statement, the journeys before we
"Marble Arch - Tower Hill
* Marble Arch - Canary Wharf DLR
* Marble Arch - Canary Wharf"

Interesting that it's put Marble Arch - Canary Wharf as two separate
journeys when it was only one, but wasn't charged due to price capping
which had already been reached. (I had done Marble Arch - Canary Wharf
DLR and then entered Canary Wharf LU and exited straight away.

I assume you went from Marble Arch to Tower Hill, then from Tower
Gateway DLR to Canary Wharf DLR - in which case the way the system
displayed the first two lines is how it always displays journeys that
contain Out-of-Station-Interchanges (OSIs) - the starting station to
the first exit, then the starting station to the next exit, and so on
if there's another OSI involved.

The third line also makes sense in that when you entered Canary Wharf
LU, it assumed you were continuing your journey from Marble Arch -
because it was within a certain time of you touching-out at Canary
Wharf DLR and there is an OSI between CW DLR and CW LU stations - and
on exiting CW LU having not travelled anywhere then the system counts
that as a (non-) journey between CW LU and CW LU and charges the
minimum fare from that station (although in your case the fare would
not have been charged as you'd reached your cap).

The next thing to bear in mind is that there is also an OSI between CW
LU and Heron Quays DLR.

In every likelihood what has happened is that your original journey
from Marble Arch 'timed-out'. The current basic assumption is that
overall journeys should take no longer that two-and-a-half hours
(originally two hours), however this is to change in September as a
more complex system of variable maximum journey times is implemented -
and this system is currently being trialled at a number of stations
including Canary Wharf DLR and LU stations.

This might have meant that 80 minutes was the allowed time for a
Marble Arch to Canary Wharf journey, as per this information that
Peter Smyth obtained from TfL back in May:
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...4747db850d431f

I'm not going to pretend that I can piece together exactly what has
happened (and whether the above stuff about variable max journey times
is relevant), but it seems possible that on touching-in at Heron Quays
the system assumed you were continuing your original journey from
Marble Arch, that original journey then timed out en-route to Woolwich
Arsenal and on exiting you were hit with the £4 'penalty' charge twice
for (a) not touching out from your original journey - because it had
'timed-out', and (b) touching-out at Woolwich Arsenal without having
touched-in - that's from the system's point of view by the way! I'm
not quite sure if that would be the sequence of events though.

What would be useful to know is when and where those two £4 charges
were applied - does this show up in your journey history at all?
(Sometimes it's actually easier to see these things on the journey
history screen on a Tube ticket machine.)


I still can't see how it could have happened. Surely if you have an
unfinished and an unstarted journey then they are the same journey and
should be charged accordingly (due to capping, no price).

As I said above, it seems likely you've been caught out by the journey
'timing-out'. Whether the trial arrangements for variable maximum
journeys times implemented at Canary Wharf LU and DLR stations has
something to do with this I can't quite say.

One other important question - how long were you around Canary Wharf
for, i.e. were there any significant gaps between exiting and entering
the CW DLR and/or LU stations and Heron Quays DLR station. And have
you any idea of the time of the overall Marble Arch to Woolwich
Arsenal journey?

I trust you'll get in touch with Oyster customer services about this -
you'll get a refund of course, and it should help the Oyster systems
bods to identify problem areas and adjust the configuration of the
system so as to be able to deal with them.

They can be contacted online via a secure web form - go to the TfL
website http://www.tfl.gov.uk/, then in the top right click on "Help
& Contact" -- "Make a complaint" -- "Oyster" -- "Fares/Refunds" and
fill out the form.