On 14 July, 00:57, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 13, 9:56*pm, MIG wrote:

On 13 July, 17:24, "Chris Read" wrote:

[snip]

The reasons we didn't like the bendies we

i) They were new, and anything new in this country is treated with wariness,
if not hostility. Especially if it's also foreign.
ii) They were blamed for seeing off the beloved Routemaster, although most
bendy routes had not been RM operated latterly.
iii) The Evening Standard told us they were rubbish, and were responsible
for the mass murder of cyclists.

I hate them, but I don't think it makes sense to scrap new vehicles.

Actual *hatred*? Actually, no, I can't quite bring myself to lauch
into a discussion about bendies right at the moment! I must say that
whilst I know the whole issue has been discussed to death (on utl at
least), I absented myself from many of the discussions - especially
after the election of Boris - because irrationality was in the air.
That's *not* to say I'm accusing you or anyone else of being
irrational solely for disliking bendies - I'm sure your critique is
well argued and reasoned - but at the time the debate was peppered
with lots of fantasising about how Boris was the savior of the
universe and was going to bring back Routemasters forthwith. The
reality, as we know now (and some of us suspected at the time) is a
little more complex and perhaps ever so lightly more mundane!

Still, one day, when I'm feeling strong enough, perhaps I'll try and
provoke a constructive discussion about bendy buses. That said, I'm
not sure I'd be able to bear it!

Oh gawd no, the reasons have been listed so many times for why people
both like and dislike them, including some particularly bizarre claims
of party political divisions (so I'm a Tory?).

But Chris's list of the case against was rather incomplete, because my
main objection is the blocking of crossings (my "hate" was just in
contrast to anyone actually being a "fan"; both terms a bit
exaggerated). Most of my other areas of dislike are less safety-
related.

One good thing that has come about is that they've got us away from
the taboo of having to show or pay something to the driver. We have
learned a lot in recent years about features that a new bus for London
needs to have, and that does NOT include "should be of a shape that
was already retro in the late 1950s".

For me, it does include

*don't take up a huge amount of road space

*don't require everyone to file through the same narrow entrance

Fixing the latter point would remove many of the objections to double
deckers.

On Jul 14, 7:53*am, plcd1 wrote:

On Jul 13, 5:24*pm, "Chris Read" wrote:

Three irrational reasons for disliking the bendy bus. But we are a rational
nation, and now quite like the idea of a bus which swallows huge crowds, has
easy access and a very good turn of speed. You wait for the moaning and
groaning when the Dennis Darts arrive on the 521.

I think you mean brand new dual door 12m Mercedes Citaros on the Red
Arrows - the first of which are apparently at Evobus in Coventry. I
don't expect to see a Dennis Dart anywhere near those routes.

FWIW, Dennis Darts did apparently do a bit of standing in stand in on
the Red Arrow routes when the bendy buses were withdrawn because of
the fires - but as far as I can see it was all hands to the pump back
then!

Stupid question - Citaros don't come in double-deck flavour do they? I
can't find any on the Merc Benz website. In other words the
replacement buses the Red Arrow routes will be single deckers,
presumably with more buses running more frequently to make up for the
decreased capacity of each bus... right? I haven't really been
following this particular saga.

On Jul 14, 10:46*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 14, 7:53*am, plcd1 wrote:

I think you mean brand new dual door 12m Mercedes Citaros on the Red
Arrows - the first of which are apparently at Evobus in Coventry. I
don't expect to see a Dennis Dart anywhere near those routes.

FWIW, Dennis Darts did apparently do a bit of standing in stand in on
the Red Arrow routes when the bendy buses were withdrawn because of
the fires - but as far as I can see it was all hands to the pump back
then!

Yes I know they did as did Routemasters on the 507 - there is a photo
on my Flickr site!

Stupid question - Citaros don't come in double-deck flavour do they? I
can't find any on the Merc Benz website. In other words the
replacement buses the Red Arrow routes will be single deckers,
presumably with more buses running more frequently to make up for the
decreased capacity of each bus... right? I haven't really been
following this particular saga.

No Citaros don't come in double deck flavour. The only German double
decks come from Neoman - either in coach form or as the Lion City
double deck for Berlin. Ironically the Lion City can have 3 doors -
including one at the back - and double staircases but Neoman have not
prequalified for "the New Bus for London". Interestingly the Berlin
double deck is "iconic" even in its most modern form but perhaps we
wouldn't want a German bus as a replacement for a German bus (at least
on one or two routes)!

http://inovacaomarketing.com/2006/11/15/man-lion-city/

The main issues re double decks on the Red Arrows are dwell time at
stops and also that the 521 runs through the Kingsway tunnel under
Aldwych. A double decker might find that a bit hard!

It is going to be interested to see if the Red Arrows can run properly
at their much higher frequencies without ending up as 36m long
convoys. I expect people expecting the roads to be clearer might be a
bit disappointed.

--
Paul C
via Google

MIG wrote:

I hate [bendibuses], but I don't think it makes sense to scrap new
vehicles.

Surely they will sell them rather than scrap them.

I am building up a photo album of bendys parked across pedestrian
crossings. No doubt I will be arrested for terrorism.

"Domestic extremism".

On Jul 14, 12:39*pm, plcd1 wrote:

No Citaros don't come in double deck flavour. *The only German double
decks come from Neoman - either in coach form or as the Lion City
double deck for Berlin. Ironically the Lion City can have 3 doors -
including one at the back - and double staircases but Neoman have not
prequalified for "the New Bus for London". Interestingly the Berlin
double deck is "iconic" even in its most modern form but perhaps we
wouldn't want a German bus as a replacement for a German bus (at least
on one or two routes)!

http://inovacaomarketing.com/2006/11/15/man-lion-city/

I'd wondered why something along the lines of the Berlin double-
deckers hadn't been considered - they've got quite a few smart
features: the rear staircase takes you straight to the back doors, and
the floor-to-ceiling front window on the top deck is a nice touch.
(Though the headroom on the upper deck seems like it's made for
smaller people - I bashed my head on the ceiling when reaching the top
of the stairs, and then again on the high-level handrail when heading
for a seat)

On Jul 14, 12:39*pm, plcd1 wrote:

On Jul 14, 10:46*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 14, 7:53*am, plcd1 wrote:

I think you mean brand new dual door 12m Mercedes Citaros on the Red
Arrows - the first of which are apparently at Evobus in Coventry. I
don't expect to see a Dennis Dart anywhere near those routes.

FWIW, Dennis Darts did apparently do a bit of standing in stand in on
the Red Arrow routes when the bendy buses were withdrawn because of
the fires - but as far as I can see it was all hands to the pump back
then!

[Argh - my lack of proof-reading rather shows above!]


Yes I know they did as did Routemasters on the 507 - there is a photo
on my Flickr site!

How funny! Aha, here it is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24759744@N02/3391368687/

Reminds me of seeing Routemasters (or at least one of them) amongst
the fleet doing rail replacement bus services when the Piccadilly &
District lines out west were severed one of the weekends last year (I
think).


Stupid question - Citaros don't come in double-deck flavour do they? I
can't find any on the Merc Benz website. In other words the
replacement buses the Red Arrow routes will be single deckers,
presumably with more buses running more frequently to make up for the
decreased capacity of each bus... right? I haven't really been
following this particular saga.

No Citaros don't come in double deck flavour. *The only German double
decks come from Neoman - either in coach form or as the Lion City
double deck for Berlin. Ironically the Lion City can have 3 doors -
including one at the back - and double staircases but Neoman have not
prequalified for "the New Bus for London". Interestingly the Berlin
double deck is "iconic" even in its most modern form but perhaps we
wouldn't want a German bus as a replacement for a German bus (at least
on one or two routes)!

http://inovacaomarketing.com/2006/11/15/man-lion-city/

Yes, I'm sure I'm not the only person who's thought about the
possibility of Berlin-esque two staircase stretched double-deckers. I
suppose the whole junction blocking complain about bendy buses might
rear it's head with a lengthened double-decker too. I could see it
working on some routes... so long as people didn't all just stand in
front of the staircases blocking the way!


The main issues re double decks on the Red Arrows are dwell time at
stops and also that the 521 runs through the Kingsway tunnel under
Aldwych. A double decker might find that a bit hard!

Indeed! The 'shortcut' through the Strand Underpass aka Kingsway
Tunnel is a very neat feature of the 521, it must be said, missing two
bus stops and two sets of lights along with the somewhat chaotic
Aldwych one-way system before delivering one to Holborn. It'd be even
better if the underpass could continue along the Kingsway tunnel
further north, possibly depositing one at a bus stop in the old
Kingsway tram station! (Though not sure this would actually work given
the other northbound traffic, plus it'd result in a rather
inconvenient interchange with other bus routes on the surface. Not
that such things matter as it's just a flight of fancy!)

Given that AIUI Red Arrows are going to remain 'board at any door',
and are also staying as Citaro buses, in a sense some things on these
routes aren't changing that much. Apart from...


It is going to be interested to see if the Red Arrows can run properly
at their much higher frequencies without ending up as 36m long
convoys. I expect people expecting the roads to be clearer might be a
bit disappointed.

Quite. We shall of course see how it works out. But if the
stereotypically red-faced cabbie thinks the roads are going to
suddenly be clear of all the other red things, he might well be
mistaken!

Mizter T wrote:


Given that AIUI Red Arrows are going to remain 'board at any door',
and are also staying as Citaro buses, in a sense some things on these
routes aren't changing that much. Apart from...


There's the slight issue that you can board an identical bus on the RV1
(which operates in the same area) and have to touch in at the front
door. A bendy is fairly obviously different, and gives a visual clue
that the ticketing mechanism is different.

When I did the maths a few months back, the 507/521 change resulted in a
20% increase in road space used. The 38 resulted in less, but they more
or less cancelled out.

Another bit of maths was this table showing estimated PVRs on each
debendified route based on all but the 507 and 521 being replaced by
double deckers at the 38 ratio:

Route Tender 5 5+ Old PVR New PVR
507 1-Jun-2002 1-Jun-2007 1-Jun-2009 9 15
521 1-Jun-2002 1-Jun-2007 1-Jun-2009 19 32
38 20-Jul-2002 20-Jul-2007 20-Jul-2009 47 72
18 23-Aug-2003 23-Aug-2008 23-Aug-2010 32 49
149 18-Oct-2003 18-Oct-2008 18-Oct-2010 27 41
73 1-May-2004 1-May-2009 1-May-2011 43 66
25 26-Jun-2004 26-Jun-2009 26-Jun-2011 43 66
12 31-Jul-2004 31-Jul-2009 31-Jul-2011 31 47
207 9-Apr-2005 9-Apr-2010 9-Apr-2012 27 41
29 14-Jan-2006 14-Jan-2011 14-Jan-2013 29 44
436 9-Feb-2008 9-Feb-2013 9-Feb-2015 26 40
453 16-Feb-2008 16-Feb-2013 16-Feb-2015 23 35

Old PVR Total: 356 New PVR Total: 549

Note that this has already been a bit overtaken by events - PVRs on
bendy routes get adjusted all the time and the out-of-service date has
already slipped to end-July (507), September (521) and November (38).

Obviously, if Boris really is going to have an end-2011 timetable, he
needs 35+40+44+41+47+66+66 = 339 new double decker buses delivered in
one year *just for ex-bendy routes* (or tear up more than just the last
four contracts). With the first dates slipping and the last dates
apparently being moved forward there's an almighty logjam appearing in
2010/2011.

Tom

Basil Jet wrote:
I'd like the Routemasters to go over Tower Bridge,
but I can't see that happening.


What, with it open, like that stunt motorcyclist the other day? Boris
would choke into his chicken feed!

Tom

On 14 July, 13:18, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 14, 12:39*pm, plcd1 wrote:

On Jul 14, 10:46*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 14, 7:53*am, plcd1 wrote:

I think you mean brand new dual door 12m Mercedes Citaros on the Red
Arrows - the first of which are apparently at Evobus in Coventry. I
don't expect to see a Dennis Dart anywhere near those routes.

FWIW, Dennis Darts did apparently do a bit of standing in stand in on
the Red Arrow routes when the bendy buses were withdrawn because of
the fires - but as far as I can see it was all hands to the pump back
then!

[Argh - my lack of proof-reading rather shows above!]



Yes I know they did as did Routemasters on the 507 - there is a photo
on my Flickr site!

How funny! Aha, here it is:http://www.flickr.com/photos/24759744@N02/3391368687/

Reminds me of seeing Routemasters (or at least one of them) amongst
the fleet doing rail replacement bus services when the Piccadilly &
District lines out west were severed one of the weekends last year (I
think).

And at the bottom end of the DLR last year.

After the Southall crash, they were used to drive down the A40 from
Ealing Broadway, which was when I first realised that they actually
have a fourth gear. Dunno why I just thought of that.

On Jul 14, 5:34*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:18:25 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

On Jul 14, 12:39*pm, plcd1 wrote:

[snip]

It is going to be interested to see if the Red Arrows can run properly
at their much higher frequencies without ending up as 36m long
convoys. I expect people expecting the roads to be clearer might be a
bit disappointed.

Quite. We shall of course see how it works out. But if the
stereotypically red-faced cabbie thinks the roads are going to
suddenly be clear of all the other red things, he might well be
mistaken!

Given two of them are on the TfL Board some interesting questions might
be asked in "high places".

I hadn't realised that both the LTDA (through Bill Oddy, the General
Secretary) and also the minicab business - in the form of Steve
Wright, the Chair of the Licensed Private Hire Car Association - were
represented on the Board. That's most interesting. I wonder if Oddy is
at Wright's throat half the time! And yet they both have to force
themselves to be nice to the cycling Chairman of the Board, Boris
himself. Then there's the motorcycling Kulveer Ranger, Boris'
transport go to man at City Hall, to throw into the mix as well. Also
interesting to note that there's not one but two union men on the
Board as well (Patrick O'Keeffe of Unite, and also Tony West, a former
Gen Sec of ASLEF and a long serving TfL Board member), though no Bob
Crow - if he was on it then they'd definitely need bouncers in
attendance!

List of TfL Board Members:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/abou...cers/1432.aspx