On Jul 14, 10:46*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 14, 7:53*am, plcd1 wrote:

I think you mean brand new dual door 12m Mercedes Citaros on the Red
Arrows - the first of which are apparently at Evobus in Coventry. I
don't expect to see a Dennis Dart anywhere near those routes.

FWIW, Dennis Darts did apparently do a bit of standing in stand in on
the Red Arrow routes when the bendy buses were withdrawn because of
the fires - but as far as I can see it was all hands to the pump back
then!

Yes I know they did as did Routemasters on the 507 - there is a photo
on my Flickr site!

Stupid question - Citaros don't come in double-deck flavour do they? I
can't find any on the Merc Benz website. In other words the
replacement buses the Red Arrow routes will be single deckers,
presumably with more buses running more frequently to make up for the
decreased capacity of each bus... right? I haven't really been
following this particular saga.

No Citaros don't come in double deck flavour. The only German double
decks come from Neoman - either in coach form or as the Lion City
double deck for Berlin. Ironically the Lion City can have 3 doors -
including one at the back - and double staircases but Neoman have not
prequalified for "the New Bus for London". Interestingly the Berlin
double deck is "iconic" even in its most modern form but perhaps we
wouldn't want a German bus as a replacement for a German bus (at least
on one or two routes)!

http://inovacaomarketing.com/2006/11/15/man-lion-city/

The main issues re double decks on the Red Arrows are dwell time at
stops and also that the 521 runs through the Kingsway tunnel under
Aldwych. A double decker might find that a bit hard!

It is going to be interested to see if the Red Arrows can run properly
at their much higher frequencies without ending up as 36m long
convoys. I expect people expecting the roads to be clearer might be a
bit disappointed.

--
Paul C
via Google

On Jul 14, 12:39*pm, plcd1 wrote:

No Citaros don't come in double deck flavour. *The only German double
decks come from Neoman - either in coach form or as the Lion City
double deck for Berlin. Ironically the Lion City can have 3 doors -
including one at the back - and double staircases but Neoman have not
prequalified for "the New Bus for London". Interestingly the Berlin
double deck is "iconic" even in its most modern form but perhaps we
wouldn't want a German bus as a replacement for a German bus (at least
on one or two routes)!

http://inovacaomarketing.com/2006/11/15/man-lion-city/

I'd wondered why something along the lines of the Berlin double-
deckers hadn't been considered - they've got quite a few smart
features: the rear staircase takes you straight to the back doors, and
the floor-to-ceiling front window on the top deck is a nice touch.
(Though the headroom on the upper deck seems like it's made for
smaller people - I bashed my head on the ceiling when reaching the top
of the stairs, and then again on the high-level handrail when heading
for a seat)

On Jul 14, 12:39*pm, plcd1 wrote:

On Jul 14, 10:46*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 14, 7:53*am, plcd1 wrote:

I think you mean brand new dual door 12m Mercedes Citaros on the Red
Arrows - the first of which are apparently at Evobus in Coventry. I
don't expect to see a Dennis Dart anywhere near those routes.

FWIW, Dennis Darts did apparently do a bit of standing in stand in on
the Red Arrow routes when the bendy buses were withdrawn because of
the fires - but as far as I can see it was all hands to the pump back
then!

[Argh - my lack of proof-reading rather shows above!]


Yes I know they did as did Routemasters on the 507 - there is a photo
on my Flickr site!

How funny! Aha, here it is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24759744@N02/3391368687/

Reminds me of seeing Routemasters (or at least one of them) amongst
the fleet doing rail replacement bus services when the Piccadilly &
District lines out west were severed one of the weekends last year (I
think).


Stupid question - Citaros don't come in double-deck flavour do they? I
can't find any on the Merc Benz website. In other words the
replacement buses the Red Arrow routes will be single deckers,
presumably with more buses running more frequently to make up for the
decreased capacity of each bus... right? I haven't really been
following this particular saga.

No Citaros don't come in double deck flavour. *The only German double
decks come from Neoman - either in coach form or as the Lion City
double deck for Berlin. Ironically the Lion City can have 3 doors -
including one at the back - and double staircases but Neoman have not
prequalified for "the New Bus for London". Interestingly the Berlin
double deck is "iconic" even in its most modern form but perhaps we
wouldn't want a German bus as a replacement for a German bus (at least
on one or two routes)!

http://inovacaomarketing.com/2006/11/15/man-lion-city/

Yes, I'm sure I'm not the only person who's thought about the
possibility of Berlin-esque two staircase stretched double-deckers. I
suppose the whole junction blocking complain about bendy buses might
rear it's head with a lengthened double-decker too. I could see it
working on some routes... so long as people didn't all just stand in
front of the staircases blocking the way!


The main issues re double decks on the Red Arrows are dwell time at
stops and also that the 521 runs through the Kingsway tunnel under
Aldwych. A double decker might find that a bit hard!

Indeed! The 'shortcut' through the Strand Underpass aka Kingsway
Tunnel is a very neat feature of the 521, it must be said, missing two
bus stops and two sets of lights along with the somewhat chaotic
Aldwych one-way system before delivering one to Holborn. It'd be even
better if the underpass could continue along the Kingsway tunnel
further north, possibly depositing one at a bus stop in the old
Kingsway tram station! (Though not sure this would actually work given
the other northbound traffic, plus it'd result in a rather
inconvenient interchange with other bus routes on the surface. Not
that such things matter as it's just a flight of fancy!)

Given that AIUI Red Arrows are going to remain 'board at any door',
and are also staying as Citaro buses, in a sense some things on these
routes aren't changing that much. Apart from...


It is going to be interested to see if the Red Arrows can run properly
at their much higher frequencies without ending up as 36m long
convoys. I expect people expecting the roads to be clearer might be a
bit disappointed.

Quite. We shall of course see how it works out. But if the
stereotypically red-faced cabbie thinks the roads are going to
suddenly be clear of all the other red things, he might well be
mistaken!

Mizter T wrote:


Given that AIUI Red Arrows are going to remain 'board at any door',
and are also staying as Citaro buses, in a sense some things on these
routes aren't changing that much. Apart from...


There's the slight issue that you can board an identical bus on the RV1
(which operates in the same area) and have to touch in at the front
door. A bendy is fairly obviously different, and gives a visual clue
that the ticketing mechanism is different.

When I did the maths a few months back, the 507/521 change resulted in a
20% increase in road space used. The 38 resulted in less, but they more
or less cancelled out.

Another bit of maths was this table showing estimated PVRs on each
debendified route based on all but the 507 and 521 being replaced by
double deckers at the 38 ratio:

Route Tender 5 5+ Old PVR New PVR
507 1-Jun-2002 1-Jun-2007 1-Jun-2009 9 15
521 1-Jun-2002 1-Jun-2007 1-Jun-2009 19 32
38 20-Jul-2002 20-Jul-2007 20-Jul-2009 47 72
18 23-Aug-2003 23-Aug-2008 23-Aug-2010 32 49
149 18-Oct-2003 18-Oct-2008 18-Oct-2010 27 41
73 1-May-2004 1-May-2009 1-May-2011 43 66
25 26-Jun-2004 26-Jun-2009 26-Jun-2011 43 66
12 31-Jul-2004 31-Jul-2009 31-Jul-2011 31 47
207 9-Apr-2005 9-Apr-2010 9-Apr-2012 27 41
29 14-Jan-2006 14-Jan-2011 14-Jan-2013 29 44
436 9-Feb-2008 9-Feb-2013 9-Feb-2015 26 40
453 16-Feb-2008 16-Feb-2013 16-Feb-2015 23 35

Old PVR Total: 356 New PVR Total: 549

Note that this has already been a bit overtaken by events - PVRs on
bendy routes get adjusted all the time and the out-of-service date has
already slipped to end-July (507), September (521) and November (38).

Obviously, if Boris really is going to have an end-2011 timetable, he
needs 35+40+44+41+47+66+66 = 339 new double decker buses delivered in
one year *just for ex-bendy routes* (or tear up more than just the last
four contracts). With the first dates slipping and the last dates
apparently being moved forward there's an almighty logjam appearing in
2010/2011.

Tom

On 14 July, 13:18, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 14, 12:39*pm, plcd1 wrote:

On Jul 14, 10:46*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 14, 7:53*am, plcd1 wrote:

I think you mean brand new dual door 12m Mercedes Citaros on the Red
Arrows - the first of which are apparently at Evobus in Coventry. I
don't expect to see a Dennis Dart anywhere near those routes.

FWIW, Dennis Darts did apparently do a bit of standing in stand in on
the Red Arrow routes when the bendy buses were withdrawn because of
the fires - but as far as I can see it was all hands to the pump back
then!

[Argh - my lack of proof-reading rather shows above!]



Yes I know they did as did Routemasters on the 507 - there is a photo
on my Flickr site!

How funny! Aha, here it is:http://www.flickr.com/photos/24759744@N02/3391368687/

Reminds me of seeing Routemasters (or at least one of them) amongst
the fleet doing rail replacement bus services when the Piccadilly &
District lines out west were severed one of the weekends last year (I
think).

And at the bottom end of the DLR last year.

After the Southall crash, they were used to drive down the A40 from
Ealing Broadway, which was when I first realised that they actually
have a fourth gear. Dunno why I just thought of that.

On Jul 14, 5:34*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:18:25 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

On Jul 14, 12:39*pm, plcd1 wrote:

[snip]

It is going to be interested to see if the Red Arrows can run properly
at their much higher frequencies without ending up as 36m long
convoys. I expect people expecting the roads to be clearer might be a
bit disappointed.

Quite. We shall of course see how it works out. But if the
stereotypically red-faced cabbie thinks the roads are going to
suddenly be clear of all the other red things, he might well be
mistaken!

Given two of them are on the TfL Board some interesting questions might
be asked in "high places".

I hadn't realised that both the LTDA (through Bill Oddy, the General
Secretary) and also the minicab business - in the form of Steve
Wright, the Chair of the Licensed Private Hire Car Association - were
represented on the Board. That's most interesting. I wonder if Oddy is
at Wright's throat half the time! And yet they both have to force
themselves to be nice to the cycling Chairman of the Board, Boris
himself. Then there's the motorcycling Kulveer Ranger, Boris'
transport go to man at City Hall, to throw into the mix as well. Also
interesting to note that there's not one but two union men on the
Board as well (Patrick O'Keeffe of Unite, and also Tony West, a former
Gen Sec of ASLEF and a long serving TfL Board member), though no Bob
Crow - if he was on it then they'd definitely need bouncers in
attendance!

List of TfL Board Members:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/abou...cers/1432.aspx

Mizter T wrote:


I hadn't realised that both the LTDA (through Bill Oddy, the General
Secretary) and also the minicab business - in the form of Steve
Wright, the Chair of the Licensed Private Hire Car Association - were
represented on the Board. That's most interesting. I wonder if Oddy is
at Wright's throat half the time! And yet they both have to force
themselves to be nice to the cycling Chairman of the Board, Boris
himself. Then there's the motorcycling Kulveer Ranger, Boris'
transport go to man at City Hall, to throw into the mix as well. Also
interesting to note that there's not one but two union men on the
Board as well (Patrick O'Keeffe of Unite, and also Tony West, a former
Gen Sec of ASLEF and a long serving TfL Board member), though no Bob
Crow - if he was on it then they'd definitely need bouncers in
attendance

Boris also received £25,000 from Addison Lee for his election campaign,
which I'm sure has no bearing on his relations with the black cab trade.

There's also this 'news' website which reads very much as a cabbie's
front organisation:

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/bl...-c-23_141.html

Watching their changing attitude to Boris is instructive - they
obviously expected him to be much more amenable for some reason.

Tom

On Jul 14, 7:07*pm, Tom Barry wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I hadn't realised that both the LTDA (through Bill Oddy, the General
Secretary) and also the minicab business - in the form of Steve
Wright, the Chair of the Licensed Private Hire Car Association - were
represented on the Board. That's most interesting. I wonder if Oddy is
at Wright's throat half the time! And yet they both have to force
themselves to be nice to the cycling Chairman of the Board, Boris
himself. Then there's the motorcycling Kulveer Ranger, Boris'
transport go to man at City Hall, to throw into the mix as well. Also
interesting to note that there's not one but two union men on the
Board as well (Patrick O'Keeffe of Unite, and also Tony West, a former
Gen Sec of ASLEF and a long serving TfL Board member), though no Bob
Crow - if he was on it then they'd definitely need bouncers in
attendance

Boris also received £25,000 from Addison Lee for his election campaign,
which I'm sure has no bearing on his relations with the black cab trade.

Most interesting... minor quibble - Addison Lee are a private hire
operator - a "minicab firm" if you will, though a rather upmarket one
at that - a word away from the typical somewhat decrepit minicab
office with a flashing orange light outside!


There's also this 'news' website which reads very much as a cabbie's
front organisation:

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/bl...-c-23_141.html

Watching their changing attitude to Boris is instructive - they
obviously expected him to be much more amenable for some reason.

Ha - an interesting observation! Not officially associated with any
trade body as far as I can see [1], but nonetheless seemingly
representing the cabbie's collective take on things. They haven't got
their way on pedicabs being banned/ licensed yet, for example!


-----
[1] Owned by IPM Media Monitoring, whoever they are - the domain
registration suggests it's some bloke in Southgate.
http://www.thelondondailynews.com/in...er-p-1205.html

Mizter T wrote:

attendance
Boris also received £25,000 from Addison Lee for his election campaign,
which I'm sure has no bearing on his relations with the black cab trade.

Most interesting... minor quibble - Addison Lee are a private hire
operator - a "minicab firm" if you will, though a rather upmarket one
at that - a word away from the typical somewhat decrepit minicab
office with a flashing orange light outside!


Basically the black cabbies appear to have assumed Boris and co., as
people more likely to travel by cab than public transport would see them
as the backbone of the capital and see their point of view on such
things as night buses (which have really annoyed them in recent years),
bendy buses, scrapping mid-year inspections, prioritising traffic over
pedestrians, banning pedicabs and so on. In other words, support a
protectionist attitude with the black cab remaining as a special case -
a conservative position, in fact.

Instead, Boris and co. appear to have gone the Thatcherite way, in which
minicabs in particular should be allowed to compete for trade and old
fashioned restrictive practices should be swept away. Hence the bizarre
sight of the RMT recruiting cab drivers into a union to fight for their
rights against the right wing free marketeers.

Of course, the free market approach benefits firms like Addison Lee who
are in a strong position to benefit from any relaxation of the rules of
plying for hire. I'm sure this had no bearing on their donation, of course.

On the TfL board, most of them never say anything - last time I watched
a webcast it was basically Steve Norris and Daniel Moylan who appeared
to be running the show, the latter in particular probably being the
originator of a large number of schemes to scrap bits of street
furniture under the bizarre naked streets obsession K&C council has had
for a while. Ealing and Hammersmith are also starting to do this with
the express support of TfL. There's actually a fairly clear line of
descent for this policy since Nicholas Ridley, which isn't something
that particularly recommends it too me, but the cabbies approve, no doubt.

Tom

In article , (Tom
Barry) wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

attendance
Boris also received £25,000 from Addison Lee for his election
campaign, which I'm sure has no bearing on his relations with the
black cab trade.

Most interesting... minor quibble - Addison Lee are a private hire
operator - a "minicab firm" if you will, though a rather upmarket
one at that - a word away from the typical somewhat decrepit minicab
office with a flashing orange light outside!

Basically the black cabbies appear to have assumed Boris and co.,
as people more likely to travel by cab than public transport would
see them as the backbone of the capital and see their point of view
on such things as night buses (which have really annoyed them in
recent years), bendy buses, scrapping mid-year inspections,
prioritising traffic over pedestrians, banning pedicabs and so on.
In other words, support a protectionist attitude with the black cab
remaining as a special case - a conservative position, in fact.

Instead, Boris and co. appear to have gone the Thatcherite way, in
which minicabs in particular should be allowed to compete for
trade and old fashioned restrictive practices should be swept away.
Hence the bizarre sight of the RMT recruiting cab drivers into a
union to fight for their rights against the right wing free
marketeers.

Of course, the free market approach benefits firms like Addison Lee
who are in a strong position to benefit from any relaxation of the
rules of plying for hire. I'm sure this had no bearing on their
donation, of course.

On the TfL board, most of them never say anything - last time I
watched a webcast it was basically Steve Norris and Daniel Moylan
who appeared to be running the show, the latter in particular
probably being the originator of a large number of schemes to scrap
bits of street furniture under the bizarre naked streets obsession
K&C council has had for a while. Ealing and Hammersmith are also
starting to do this with the express support of TfL. There's
actually a fairly clear line of descent for this policy since
Nicholas Ridley, which isn't something that particularly recommends
it too me, but the cabbies approve, no doubt.

One of Nick Ridley's other gifts to the (out of London) cab trade was
delimitation which is not popular in Cambridge right now.

--
Colin Rosenstiel