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London Heritage Routes
With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. Personally I think they should extend the 15 so it runs from Tower Hill to Trafalgar Square and then to Marble Arch. The 9 is fine, but both these services are east to west routes so I think if they were to introduce a third service it should be north to south and one that actually crosses the Thames. An ideal route for a heritage service in my opinion would be the 453 running from Baker Street to County Hall (or from Marylebone Station to Elephant & Castle if there would be no space to turn or stand at those other locations). The high service number is a bit unfortunate though. Has anyone any thoughts on this? |
#2
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London Heritage Routes
"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. Personally I think they should extend the 15 so it runs from Tower Hill to Trafalgar Square and then to Marble Arch. The 9 is fine, but both these services are east to west routes so I think if they were to introduce a third service it should be north to south and one that actually crosses the Thames. On the assumption 'heritage route' resourcing remains static, I would scrap the 9H (with its random and useless western terminus), and put the vehicles onto the 15H to extend it beyond Trafalgar Square. Marble Arch would be nice, but Oxford Circus would be more realistic with a 10 vehicle run out I suspect. No doubt stand space would be problematic. Such a route would, however, be of more use to regular commuters/shoppers than the current 15H. An ideal route for a heritage service in my opinion would be the 453 running from Baker Street to County Hall (or from Marylebone Station to Elephant & Castle if there would be no space to turn or stand at those other locations). The high service number is a bit unfortunate though. Has anyone any thoughts on this? A nice idea which won't happen. Chris |
#3
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London Heritage Routes
On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote: "West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be that similar to the old Routemasters. Chris - whilst one can look at them solely the context of TfL's real job of moving people from A to B, I think it fair to say that they are a small but important part of 'brand London' - and whilst they might be costly to run, the tourist promotion folks would surely argue that they are worthwhile investment in terms of tourism. Also, the London transport network has more than its fair share of museum pieces that are nonetheless integral parts of the system - I'm thinking more in terms of architecture and buildings as opposed to vehicles. Great lengths are gone to preserve many of these buildings and stations, and the historical features thereof - under your strict analysis, doing this is also not necessary but merely a 'nice to have'. Maybe so, but I think in many cases the extra effort is worthwhile. (And this all comes from someone who is a bendy bus fan! Which leads me on to think... will the LT Museum keep a bendy bus? One could certainly argue they should - but the LTM is part of TfL which is ultimately answerable to the Mayor, and I dare say he'd veto any such suggestion given his professed desire to eradicate them. Thus we are left with the potential for each and every Mayor to airbrush London's transport history as they so please! Possibly a bit of an OTT comment, but you see where I'm coming from. I dare say someone will be along any moment to argue that such airbrushing of history at the LTM is nothing new...!) |
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London Heritage Routes
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London Heritage Routes
Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote: "West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced That would involve an interest in the detail. He's not that interested in the detail. He's not that interested in buses, actually - electric cars and bikes, yes - buses and trains, no. He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation. I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be that similar to the old Routemasters. It won't even have an open back, as currently envisaged, more a door that's left open during the day. This allows them to reduce the crewing cost, and therefore suggests alarm bells at the differential in running costs with OPO double deckers, let alone artics. The 9H and 15H ought to be up for retender a few months before the end of Boris's first and hopefully last term, with the contract running out a few months later Be interesting to watch if the tender announcement comes out on time. My prediction has long been that London will have more artics than Routemasters of any variety come May 2012. Tom |
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London Heritage Routes
On Jul 12, 11:49*pm, Tom Barry wrote: Mizter T wrote: On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote: "West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced That would involve an interest in the detail. *He's not that interested in the detail. *He's not that interested in buses, actually - electric cars and bikes, yes - buses and trains, no. He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation. I hadn't picked up on the KPMG review until fairly recently when Paul C provided a head's up on it. It is a bit worrying... I'm hoping that all they'll recommend doing is tinkering around the edges (because they have to recommend something), rather than wrecking the whole thing. I hope that those doing the review, and those making decisions subsequently, also take note of this March 2006 report from the Assembly's Transport Committee entitled "Value added? The Transport Committee’s assessment of whether the bus contracts issued by London Buses represent value for money." It's available here as a PDF: http://www.london.gov.uk/assembly/re...alue-added.pdf Essentially it answers yes. But what's notable about it in particular is that it provides a potted history of the attempts over the last couple of decades or so in organising the service along different lines (such as net cost contracts), none of which were particularly successful/ some of which were arguably something of a disaster. The turnaround of the bus network in London in recent years has been a real achievement, with ridership on the up and up. I genuinely hope that Boris & Co realise this, and don't go about ballsing it all up. Not least because, in recessionville London, bus ridership is holding steady if not increasing. But more than that - it's a success story that doesn't need to be ruined. I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all.. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be that similar to the old Routemasters. It won't even have an open back, as currently envisaged, more a door that's left open during the day. *This allows them to reduce the crewing cost, and therefore suggests alarm bells at the differential in running costs with OPO double deckers, let alone artics. The 9H and 15H ought to be up for retender a few months before the end of Boris's first and hopefully last term, with the contract running out a few months later *Be interesting to watch if the tender announcement comes out on time. My prediction has long been that London will have more artics than Routemasters of any variety come May 2012. Interesting prediction. Probably accurate too. FWIW, I think ditching the bendy bus is a stupid decision, but ultimately if that's the sacrificial lamb that has to be slaughtered in order for the rest of the network to survive and flourish then regretfully I say so be it. However, of course things aren't as simple as that, as Boris has said that current bendy bus contracts will be left to run all the way to the end (I wonder if things would have taken a different course if TfL had still been relatively flush with money?). If he won a second term then they'd presumably all go. Though the other factor is of course what the reaction will be to the withdrawal of bendies on certain routes, and replacement with slower double deckers. "The people" might speak out (as they were encouraged to do with regards to the CC Western Extension for example), though said people are perhaps not those Boris is terribly interested in listening to. |
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London Heritage Routes
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#8
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London Heritage Routes
On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote: On Jul 12, 11:49*pm, Tom Barry wrote: Mizter T wrote: On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote: "West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced There are insufficient spare vehicles within TfL ownership to allow any expansion. The spare vehicle coverage is already way higher than on any other bus route. He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation. I hadn't picked up on the KPMG review until fairly recently when Paul C provided a head's up on it. It is a bit worrying... I'm hoping that all they'll recommend doing is tinkering around the edges (because they have to recommend something), rather than wrecking the whole thing. They have to do a review to ensure it's all "value for money". I'm sure Mr Souter and Mr Lockhead will say it would all be wonderful if they were allowed to scrap it out themselves and nasty TfL was pushed out the way. "Think of all those hundreds of millions you'd save by giving it all to us to run" while ably forgetting how much it would cost when huge swathes of the network were cut and "Fred Bloggs Buses" won the contract to wander round the streets of Coulsdon with an ex London ex Birmingham almost ex scrapheap Dennis Dart! There is a very real issue here and my guess is that Mr Norris has convinced someone that it can be done way cheaper than it currently costs with no impact on service quality or fares. The report - if published - could end up either as a damp squib or political dynamite. The issue is whether cuts (or more politely savings) can be achieved without any political fall out before 2012. Ken got away with cuts and trims round the edges of the network but generally there were improvements. That trend has broadly continued to date but I do sense a change is on the way. The turnaround of the bus network in London in recent years has been a real achievement, with ridership on the up and up. I genuinely hope that Boris & Co realise this, and don't go about ballsing it all up. Not least because, in recessionville London, bus ridership is holding steady if not increasing. But more than that - it's a success story that doesn't need to be ruined. Well yes but other than saying "new Routemaster" what else has been said about bus services in London by the present regime? The nearest thing to a policy statement was hidden in the TfL Business Plan indicating that funding for continued network expansion would remain. Oh and Countdown 2 is funded (which is good). There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be that similar to the old Routemasters. I agree it would be political suicide for the Heritage routes to fall by the wayside under Boris. I don't see that happening. They are due for retender by Nov 2010 so will be out to tender from about Jan 2010. As they are tendered gross contracts they cannot be extended as QI contracts can. They are disproportionately expensive and have been difficult to run reliably although the 15 seems to be doing better these days. My prediction has long been that London will have more artics than Routemasters of any variety come May 2012. Interesting prediction. Probably accurate too. FWIW, I think ditching the bendy bus is a stupid decision, but ultimately if that's the sacrificial lamb that has to be slaughtered in order for the rest of the network to survive and flourish then regretfully I say so be it. Well I think we have interesting times ahead. Within 2 months the Red Arrows will have shrunk in size but increased in frequency - I wonder how that will work in practice? And then in November we have the 38 change over. If people were to start pondering the scale of new vehicles, garage space, road space, turning / termini space etc that a fully converted bendy network will need you probably start to end up with some truly frightening statistics. These routes all have terrifically high PVRs and if you scale them upwards as per the 38 you start to get to some crazy numbers and real potential reliability issues around dwell times. I know people argue like hell as to whether bendies are faster or not at stops than conventional deckers but routes like the 25 will have to be every 2 mins or so and the 73 probably every minute. The alternative is massive route restructuring on some links to deal with the demand in other ways. People moaned about the obvious and hidden costs with bendy buses - I'm not convinced you don't get a repeat of the same issues with a conversion back to conventional buses. However, of course things aren't as simple as that, as Boris has said that current bendy bus contracts will be left to run all the way to the end (I wonder if things would have taken a different course if TfL had still been relatively flush with money?). If he won a second term then they'd presumably all go. Well there are now very mixed messages blowing around on this point. I have read in two separate places that Boris has decreed all bendies have to be gone by the end of 2011. This sounds very much like a politically driven timescale and is contrary to earlier pronouncements. I don't have a source as to when the Mayor is alleged to have made this statement. To counter it there was a BBC news article saying the Mayor had acknowledged that some bendies *may* still be around in 2015. These comments started circulating about 4-6 weeks ago. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8105875.stm A Google search throws up this Time Out interview where "all gone by 2011" is mentioned. http://www.timeout.com/london/featur...interview.html I don't know what is going on but if you take the political line it looks like someone is saying "the bendies must be gone before the campaign starts" and possibly "you might only have one or two new Buses for London around so killing the bendies has to happen". The last sentence is pure mad speculation on my part but someone must be thinking ahead about manifesto commitment fulfillment. Though the other factor is of course what the reaction will be to the withdrawal of bendies on certain routes, and replacement with slower double deckers. "The people" might speak out (as they were encouraged to do with regards to the CC Western Extension for example), though said people are perhaps not those Boris is terribly interested in listening to. I think there may be initial issues which can be predicted - delays on Red Arrows, long boarding times on the 38, lower deck crowding on the 38s, buggy wars. The real issue is whether any of these issues become associated with the decision to change vehicles and whether the operators can fix the problems quickly. All of the routes subject to conversion will suffer some short term issues - it happened when they went bendy and has happened when routes went from crew to OPO back in the 80s and 90s. Normal experience is that the initial teething problems vanish as people get used to the revised way of doing things and operators get new schedules agreed. We shall see what happens! -- Paul C |
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London Heritage Routes
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#10
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London Heritage Routes
"Neil Williams" wrote: Outside London, bus companies still insist on having people pay the driver for tickets on complicated fares structures. I've never understood why they're too conservative to do otherwise, with a few notable exceptions - the time you'd save would save money by reducing the number of buses required for a given service. Madness, isn't it? I was contemplating this very point today, as I used a few Brighton & Hove services. B&H are rightly regarded as a good operator - forward-thinking in many ways. But none of the fares seem to be 'round pounds', and the only flat fare zone is a restricted area in the city centre - otherwise it's the traditional fare stages. They don't like notes above £5, and consequently people fish for the right change - in the case of the lady ahead of me in one queue today, this involved 2 pence pieces. Factor in three fare changes in 12 months, and the irregular bus user doesn't know the fare they will be asked to find, and gets flustered. An Oyster-like pre-pay system would be great, but failing that: £1 for a short hop (up to three/four stops) £3 for everything else 50p flat fare for kids/teens Job done! Chris |
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