On 13 Aug, 10:35, MIG wrote:
On 31 July, 18:41, MIG wrote:





On 31 July, 15:16, John B wrote:

On Jul 31, 3:06*pm, Neil *Williams wrote:

Why oh why do they still manufacture trains with such horrifically
slow procedures that result in completely unnecessarily extended dwell
times? Totally unsuitable for LO.

TBH, I'm amazed that these new trains weren't accompanied by a
conversion to DOO. *They could have been fitted with cameras to avoid
any need for station infrastructure.

I believe "that ******* Crow" is the reason. If the trains weren't
*originally planned* for DOO, then I'm the king of the monkey people.

I fail to see any need forguards(other than as a security presence
in the evenings, in which case one on their own is little use) on LO.

None whatsoever. Or on any other commuter stock. Sadly, unless we've
got the collective stomach for a Thatcher-and-the-miners standoff,
we're stuck with the buggers.

Maybe we could pay them extra to not open the doors and just stand
around looking reassuring, in the same way Victoria Line drivers get
paid more than other grades to not drive the trains.

But none of this is anything to do with having guards. *It's to do
with the procedure. *It would be even worse if drivers on DOO trains
had to open their door, step out etc.

And there were guards on the Underground till recently, with no such
delays. *In fact less delays, because they were already leaning out
when the train stopped, which a driver can't do.

Also, I note the slow procedure on SWT and LM, but not on South Eastern
in the sections and trains where there are guards.

I know it's hard to resist abusing Bob Crow, but I wonder if the
ridiculous procedures have been introduced by TOCs to create delays
that they can blame on guards.

To follow up: yesterday I travelled on a Southern Service from
Bletchley to Shepherds Bush, operated by LM stock on LM territory, and
the doors were always released instantly*.

They seem to have a different rule that allows the guard to lean out
of the back cab.

*The actual doors are still very slow.

I think the difference here is that the Southern services are only
ever four car, so providing the train has not overshot the platform,
all the doors will always be in the platform. The delays on the LM
services come with the 8 and 12 car trains where it can't be
guaranteed that the whole train is in the platform, especially if the
guard isn't at the rear of the train but somewhere in the middle and
so needs to get out and check.

On 13 Aug, 11:22, Andy wrote:
On 13 Aug, 10:35, MIG wrote:





On 31 July, 18:41, MIG wrote:

On 31 July, 15:16, John B wrote:

On Jul 31, 3:06*pm, Neil *Williams wrote:

Why oh why do they still manufacture trains with such horrifically
slow procedures that result in completely unnecessarily extended dwell
times? Totally unsuitable for LO.

TBH, I'm amazed that these new trains weren't accompanied by a
conversion to DOO. *They could have been fitted with cameras to avoid
any need for station infrastructure.

I believe "that ******* Crow" is the reason. If the trains weren't
*originally planned* for DOO, then I'm the king of the monkey people.

I fail to see any need forguards(other than as a security presence
in the evenings, in which case one on their own is little use) on LO.

None whatsoever. Or on any other commuter stock. Sadly, unless we've
got the collective stomach for a Thatcher-and-the-miners standoff,
we're stuck with the buggers.

Maybe we could pay them extra to not open the doors and just stand
around looking reassuring, in the same way Victoria Line drivers get
paid more than other grades to not drive the trains.

But none of this is anything to do with having guards. *It's to do
with the procedure. *It would be even worse if drivers on DOO trains
had to open their door, step out etc.

And there were guards on the Underground till recently, with no such
delays. *In fact less delays, because they were already leaning out
when the train stopped, which a driver can't do.

Also, I note the slow procedure on SWT and LM, but not on South Eastern
in the sections and trains where there are guards.

I know it's hard to resist abusing Bob Crow, but I wonder if the
ridiculous procedures have been introduced by TOCs to create delays
that they can blame on guards.

To follow up: yesterday I travelled on a Southern Service from
Bletchley to Shepherds Bush, operated by LM stock on LM territory, and
the doors were always released instantly*.

They seem to have a different rule that allows the guard to lean out
of the back cab.

*The actual doors are still very slow.

I think the difference here is that the Southern services are only
ever four car, so providing the train has not overshot the platform,
all the doors will always be in the platform. The delays on the LM
services come with the 8 and 12 car trains where it can't be
guaranteed that the whole train is in the platform, especially if the
guard isn't at the rear of the train but somewhere in the middle and
so needs to get out and check.

That may explain this particular difference, but doesn't really
explain why it's not a problem on SouthEastern. If I get a long train
to Gillingham, a guard gets on at Strood, but doesn't take thirty
seconds to release the doors at Rochester or Chatham. Are LM and SWT
guards told to assume that their drivers can't pull up in the right
place?

I will have to make a point of checking whether the delay is less next
time I am on a 4 car LM train.

On 13 Aug, 14:52, MIG wrote:
On 13 Aug, 11:22, Andy wrote:





On 13 Aug, 10:35, MIG wrote:

On 31 July, 18:41, MIG wrote:

On 31 July, 15:16, John B wrote:

On Jul 31, 3:06*pm, Neil *Williams wrote:

Why oh why do they still manufacture trains with such horrifically
slow procedures that result in completely unnecessarily extended dwell
times? Totally unsuitable for LO.

TBH, I'm amazed that these new trains weren't accompanied by a
conversion to DOO. *They could have been fitted with cameras to avoid
any need for station infrastructure.

I believe "that ******* Crow" is the reason. If the trains weren't
*originally planned* for DOO, then I'm the king of the monkey people.

I fail to see any need forguards(other than as a security presence
in the evenings, in which case one on their own is little use) on LO.

None whatsoever. Or on any other commuter stock. Sadly, unless we've
got the collective stomach for a Thatcher-and-the-miners standoff,
we're stuck with the buggers.

Maybe we could pay them extra to not open the doors and just stand
around looking reassuring, in the same way Victoria Line drivers get
paid more than other grades to not drive the trains.

But none of this is anything to do with having guards. *It's to do
with the procedure. *It would be even worse if drivers on DOO trains
had to open their door, step out etc.

And there were guards on the Underground till recently, with no such
delays. *In fact less delays, because they were already leaning out
when the train stopped, which a driver can't do.

Also, I note the slow procedure on SWT and LM, but not on South Eastern
in the sections and trains where there are guards.

I know it's hard to resist abusing Bob Crow, but I wonder if the
ridiculous procedures have been introduced by TOCs to create delays
that they can blame on guards.

To follow up: yesterday I travelled on a Southern Service from
Bletchley to Shepherds Bush, operated by LM stock on LM territory, and
the doors were always released instantly*.

They seem to have a different rule that allows the guard to lean out
of the back cab.

*The actual doors are still very slow.

I think the difference here is that the Southern services are only
ever four car, so providing the train has not overshot the platform,
all the doors will always be in the platform. The delays on the LM
services come with the 8 and 12 car trains where it can't be
guaranteed that the whole train is in the platform, especially if the
guard isn't at the rear of the train but somewhere in the middle and
so needs to get out and check.

That may explain this particular difference, but doesn't really
explain why it's not a problem on SouthEastern. *If I get a long train
to Gillingham, a guard gets on at Strood, but doesn't take thirty
seconds to release the doors at Rochester or Chatham. *Are LM and SWT
guards told to assume that their drivers can't pull up in the right
place?

I will have to make a point of checking whether the delay is less next
time I am on a 4 car LM train.

The difference is that on LM trains it is still the conductor who
controls opening of the doors. On the Southern and South Eastern
Electrostar trains it is the driver who controls the door opening,
with the help of selective door opening via GPS where platforms are
short. The problem on LM isn't that the driver might not have stopped
in the correct place, it is that the conductor has to check that he is
in the correct spot for opening the doors. As I understand it, on the
Class 350s with SDO, doors can only be opened for complete units (So
if seven coaches are in the platform, only the front 4 can be opened),
I have certainly witnessed this at Wembley Central on an 8 car LM
service. The Desiro SDO seems to have a lot cruder level of control. I
don't even know if each Desiro coach 'knows' its position in the
train, the Electrostars do, as they are forever telling you that you
are in coach 7 of 11 (or whatever)

On 13 Aug, 17:23, Andy wrote:
On 13 Aug, 14:52, MIG wrote:





On 13 Aug, 11:22, Andy wrote:

On 13 Aug, 10:35, MIG wrote:

On 31 July, 18:41, MIG wrote:

On 31 July, 15:16, John B wrote:

On Jul 31, 3:06*pm, Neil *Williams wrote:

Why oh why do they still manufacture trains with such horrifically
slow procedures that result in completely unnecessarily extended dwell
times? Totally unsuitable for LO.

TBH, I'm amazed that these new trains weren't accompanied by a
conversion to DOO. *They could have been fitted with cameras to avoid
any need for station infrastructure.

I believe "that ******* Crow" is the reason. If the trains weren't
*originally planned* for DOO, then I'm the king of the monkey people.

I fail to see any need forguards(other than as a security presence
in the evenings, in which case one on their own is little use) on LO.

None whatsoever. Or on any other commuter stock. Sadly, unless we've
got the collective stomach for a Thatcher-and-the-miners standoff,
we're stuck with the buggers.

Maybe we could pay them extra to not open the doors and just stand
around looking reassuring, in the same way Victoria Line drivers get
paid more than other grades to not drive the trains.

But none of this is anything to do with having guards. *It's to do
with the procedure. *It would be even worse if drivers on DOO trains
had to open their door, step out etc.

And there were guards on the Underground till recently, with no such
delays. *In fact less delays, because they were already leaning out
when the train stopped, which a driver can't do.

Also, I note the slow procedure on SWT and LM, but not on South Eastern
in the sections and trains where there are guards.

I know it's hard to resist abusing Bob Crow, but I wonder if the
ridiculous procedures have been introduced by TOCs to create delays
that they can blame on guards.

To follow up: yesterday I travelled on a Southern Service from
Bletchley to Shepherds Bush, operated by LM stock on LM territory, and
the doors were always released instantly*.

They seem to have a different rule that allows the guard to lean out
of the back cab.

*The actual doors are still very slow.

I think the difference here is that the Southern services are only
ever four car, so providing the train has not overshot the platform,
all the doors will always be in the platform. The delays on the LM
services come with the 8 and 12 car trains where it can't be
guaranteed that the whole train is in the platform, especially if the
guard isn't at the rear of the train but somewhere in the middle and
so needs to get out and check.

That may explain this particular difference, but doesn't really
explain why it's not a problem on SouthEastern. *If I get a long train
to Gillingham, a guard gets on at Strood, but doesn't take thirty
seconds to release the doors at Rochester or Chatham. *Are LM and SWT
guards told to assume that their drivers can't pull up in the right
place?

I will have to make a point of checking whether the delay is less next
time I am on a 4 car LM train.

The difference is that on LM trains it is still the conductor who
controls opening of the doors. On the Southern and South Eastern
Electrostar trains it is the driver who controls the door opening,
with the help of selective door opening via GPS where platforms are
short. The problem on LM isn't that the driver might not have stopped
in the correct place, it is that the conductor has to check that he is
in the correct spot for opening the doors. As I understand it, on the
Class 350s with SDO, doors can only be opened for complete units (So
if seven coaches are in the platform, only the front 4 can be opened),
I have certainly witnessed this at Wembley Central on an 8 car LM
service. The Desiro SDO seems to have a lot cruder level of control. I
don't even know if each Desiro coach 'knows' its position in the
train, the Electrostars do, as they are forever telling you that you
are in coach 7 of 11 (or whatever)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ah, you mean the guard presses the "open" button, but the driver may
control the SDO? I think there used to be something similar on LU,
depending on which end of the train was at risk of being off the
platform, where either the driver or the guard could cut out the
nearest end doors, eg on 1962 stock that I remember.

On 13 Aug, 17:35, MIG wrote:
On 13 Aug, 17:23, Andy wrote:





On 13 Aug, 14:52, MIG wrote:

On 13 Aug, 11:22, Andy wrote:

On 13 Aug, 10:35, MIG wrote:

On 31 July, 18:41, MIG wrote:

On 31 July, 15:16, John B wrote:

On Jul 31, 3:06*pm, Neil *Williams wrote:

Why oh why do they still manufacture trains with such horrifically
slow procedures that result in completely unnecessarily extended dwell
times? Totally unsuitable for LO.

TBH, I'm amazed that these new trains weren't accompanied by a
conversion to DOO. *They could have been fitted with cameras to avoid
any need for station infrastructure.

I believe "that ******* Crow" is the reason. If the trains weren't
*originally planned* for DOO, then I'm the king of the monkey people.

I fail to see any need forguards(other than as a security presence
in the evenings, in which case one on their own is little use) on LO.

None whatsoever. Or on any other commuter stock. Sadly, unless we've
got the collective stomach for a Thatcher-and-the-miners standoff,
we're stuck with the buggers.

Maybe we could pay them extra to not open the doors and just stand
around looking reassuring, in the same way Victoria Line drivers get
paid more than other grades to not drive the trains.

But none of this is anything to do with having guards. *It's to do
with the procedure. *It would be even worse if drivers on DOO trains
had to open their door, step out etc.

And there were guards on the Underground till recently, with no such
delays. *In fact less delays, because they were already leaning out
when the train stopped, which a driver can't do.

Also, I note the slow procedure on SWT and LM, but not on South Eastern
in the sections and trains where there are guards.

I know it's hard to resist abusing Bob Crow, but I wonder if the
ridiculous procedures have been introduced by TOCs to create delays
that they can blame on guards.

To follow up: yesterday I travelled on a Southern Service from
Bletchley to Shepherds Bush, operated by LM stock on LM territory, and
the doors were always released instantly*.

They seem to have a different rule that allows the guard to lean out
of the back cab.

*The actual doors are still very slow.

I think the difference here is that the Southern services are only
ever four car, so providing the train has not overshot the platform,
all the doors will always be in the platform. The delays on the LM
services come with the 8 and 12 car trains where it can't be
guaranteed that the whole train is in the platform, especially if the
guard isn't at the rear of the train but somewhere in the middle and
so needs to get out and check.

That may explain this particular difference, but doesn't really
explain why it's not a problem on SouthEastern. *If I get a long train
to Gillingham, a guard gets on at Strood, but doesn't take thirty
seconds to release the doors at Rochester or Chatham. *Are LM and SWT
guards told to assume that their drivers can't pull up in the right
place?

I will have to make a point of checking whether the delay is less next
time I am on a 4 car LM train.

The difference is that on LM trains it is still the conductor who
controls opening of the doors. On the Southern and South Eastern
Electrostar trains it is the driver who controls the door opening,
with the help of selective door opening via GPS where platforms are
short. The problem on LM isn't that the driver might not have stopped
in the correct place, it is that the conductor has to check that he is
in the correct spot for opening the doors. As I understand it, on the
Class 350s with SDO, doors can only be opened for complete units (So
if seven coaches are in the platform, only the front 4 can be opened),
I have certainly witnessed this at Wembley Central on an 8 car LM
service. The Desiro SDO seems to have a lot cruder level of control. I
don't even know if each Desiro coach 'knows' its position in the
train, the Electrostars do, as they are forever telling you that you
are in coach 7 of 11 (or whatever)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ah, you mean the guard presses the "open" button, but the driver may
control the SDO? *I think there used to be something similar on LU,
depending on which end of the train was at risk of being off the
platform, where either the driver or the guard could cut out the
nearest end doors, eg on 1962 stock that I remember.

If you mean the Desiros, then no, it is the conductor who has complete
control, the SDO is limited to opening the doors of the unit(s) in
front of the position of the guard. On the Desiros, the driver is not
involved in the door opening at all, other than making sure that the
train is stopped at the correct point. This SDO is much more limited
than the Electrostar model.

The details are on the railsigns website: http://www.railsigns.co.uk/
sect21page4/sect21page4.html

"When two 4-car Class 350 'Desiro' units are working together in
multiple, 'Unit Deselect' (UDS) can be used at platforms that are too
short to accommodate all the train doors. When Unit Deselect is used,
only the doors on the front unit can be opened. At stations where this
applies, "UDS" boards are provided [21.80]. The driver should bring
the train to a stand at the "UDS" board to ensure that the leading cab
door of the rear unit is on the platform. The conductor will operate
Unit Deselect from the leading cab of the rear unit."

Just seen this tghread, hoping it would tell me where to see 378s in service
on my London trip next week. Seems to have drifted....

Also, how many 377/5s are out and about

Tony

"Tony Day" wrote in message
...
Just seen this tghread, hoping it would tell me where to see 378s in
service on my London trip next week. Seems to have drifted....

Also, how many 377/5s are out and about

Tony

Well 377 510 is out

On Aug 14, 6:35*pm, "Tony Day" wrote:
Just seen this tghread, hoping it would tell me where to see 378s in service
on my London trip next week. Seems to have drifted....


There are currently two 378 diagrams and rumour that a third will
start on Monday. The diagrams mostly cover Richmond - Stratford, none
on the Euston - Watford route yet.

Also, how many 377/5s are out and about


I saw 377 511 in service on 11/08

In article 6a9c599d-5aca-4734-bc19-
, says...

I don't even know if each Desiro coach 'knows' its position in the
train, the Electrostars do, as they are forever telling you that you
are in coach 7 of 11 (or whatever)

I was on a TPX Desiro which split at Preston yesterday and the customer
announcements seemed more advanced than those on the Electrostars, as
they are specific to the carriage they are announced in. For example "We
are approaching Preston where this train divides. This part of the train
will continue to Edinburgh calling at ... Customer traveling to
Windermere should get off at Preston and move to the rear 3 coaches."

The Electrostar announcements are generic for the whole train, but with
"you are in carriage x or y" tacked onto the end of every announcement.

Duncan

"Andy" wrote in message

On Aug 14, 6:35 pm, "Tony Day" wrote:
Just seen this tghread, hoping it would tell me where to see 378s in
service on my London trip next week. Seems to have drifted....


There are currently two 378 diagrams and rumour that a third will
start on Monday. The diagrams mostly cover Richmond - Stratford, none
on the Euston - Watford route yet.

I saw four of them parked at Willesden yesterday, but don't know if
they're all available for service.