On 17 Sep, 13:49, Neil Williams wrote:
On Sep 17, 1:20*pm, Sim wrote:

They prefer S-
Bahn and U-Bahn, we prefer Overground and Underground. Both are clear
enough for me.

And there are odd examples. *In Hamburg, there is a large section of S-
Bahn that is underground, and a large section of U-Bahn that is
elevated (hence Hamburger Hochbahn AG - the overhead railway!).


To my way of thinking the S-bahns generally serve areas further out
than the U-bahns. Much of the S-bahn track is now exclusively for S-
bahn trains and the services are no longer directly run by DB (if
thinking about Germany), but put out to tender by the local transport
authority. Both the Met and District, as well as LO have a lot more in
common with various S-bahn networks than with the corresponding U-
bahn.

Graham Harrison wrote:
"Basil Jet" wrote in message
...

Is there a reason why this is not just billed as part of the
Underground, especially since it will soon have some deep tube bits?
If the Underground can include the Chesham branch, why not the North
London Line? Do staff at Gospel Oak station get paid less than staff
at Chesham, in which case keeping the Overground separate from the
Underground is a divide-and-conquer wheeze against the rail workers?

What is now called the "Overground" is actually part of "British
Rail". The government put those lines out to tender and "Overground"
won it. Therefore, it's not part of Tfl as such - for instance it
works under National Rail rules/signalling and passenger
terms/conditions not LU.

Signalling and rules are of no relevance. The ATO lines are not declared to
be a different system to the driven lines, for instance.

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...
1506 wrote:

This is something I have wondered for some time. The Overground name
is contrived. The East London Line is a former Underground line
anyway.

But before it became part of the 'Underground' it was part of the main
line network, so it is just back where it was originally...

It was an oddity. It escaped the Grouping because it was part-owned by the
Metropolitan, who ran all the passenger trains, and it escaped the formation
of the London Passenger Transport Board because it was part-owned by the
Southern Railway. Following nationalisation it was administered by the
London Transport Executive, but still figured in the Southern Region
timetable, and it was possible to obtain through tickets from SR stations to
ELL stations, even when through tickets (other than season tickets) from SR
to LT stations did not exist.

Peter

On 17 Sep, 14:28, Andy wrote:
On 17 Sep, 12:53, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:43, MIG wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:38, Jamie Thompson wrote:

...though of course, as pointed out elsewhere, the Underground goes
over the Overground at Whitechapel

And at Hampstead, Kilburn and Wembley.

I presume you mean the Met east of South Hampstead (never thought
really about it, but I guess you're right!), the Met at Kilburn yup,
but Wembley? The Met just south of Kenton, yes, but Wembley...where?

I agree that this should be Kenton, not Wembley and it also occurs at
Chiswick (District and Piccadilly over), north of Shepherd's Bush
(Hammersmith & City over), and in the recent past at Stratford
(Central line over until the LO platforms moved to the north of the
station) and West Ham (under the District / H&C until the North
Woolwich section shut).

North west London is all one mush to me ... Kenton then. Or
Northwick Park.

1506 wrote:
This is something I have wondered for some time. The Overground name
is contrived.

Indeed, its also quite interesting the way the term 'overground' has
become a way of describing National Rail trains within London for some,
even if not run by LOROL.

Its fairly common on LBC 97.3 when callers phone in and talk about rail
services as overground trains.

"Great Eastern" wrote in message
...
1506 wrote:
This is something I have wondered for some time. The Overground name
is contrived.

Indeed, its also quite interesting the way the term 'overground' has
become a way of describing National Rail trains within London for some,
even if not run by LOROL.

Its fairly common on LBC 97.3 when callers phone in and talk about rail
services as overground trains.

Several years ago, IIRC at the instigation of TfL, National Rail services
within Greater London which had a frequency of 4 tph or better were branded
'Overground Network'. Some of teh branding still exists, at stations which
are not part of London Overground.

Peter

In message
MIG wrote:

On 17 Sep, 14:28, Andy wrote:
On 17 Sep, 12:53, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:43, MIG wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:38, Jamie Thompson wrote:

...though of course, as pointed out elsewhere, the Underground goes
over the Overground at Whitechapel

And at Hampstead, Kilburn and Wembley.

I presume you mean the Met east of South Hampstead (never thought
really about it, but I guess you're right!), the Met at Kilburn yup,
but Wembley? The Met just south of Kenton, yes, but Wembley...where?

I agree that this should be Kenton, not Wembley and it also occurs at
Chiswick (District and Piccadilly over), north of Shepherd's Bush
(Hammersmith & City over), and in the recent past at Stratford
(Central line over until the LO platforms moved to the north of the
station) and West Ham (under the District / H&C until the North
Woolwich section shut).

North west London is all one mush to me ... Kenton then. Or
Northwick Park.

Mornington Crescent!

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

On 17 Sep, 16:22, rail wrote:
In message
* * * * * MIG wrote:





On 17 Sep, 14:28, Andy wrote:
On 17 Sep, 12:53, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:43, MIG wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:38, Jamie Thompson wrote:

...though of course, as pointed out elsewhere, the Underground goes
over the Overground at Whitechapel

And at Hampstead, Kilburn and Wembley.

I presume you mean the Met east of South Hampstead (never thought
really about it, but I guess you're right!), the Met at Kilburn yup,
but Wembley? The Met just south of Kenton, yes, but Wembley...where?

I agree that this should be Kenton, not Wembley and it also occurs at
Chiswick (District and Piccadilly over), north of Shepherd's Bush
(Hammersmith & City over), and in the recent past at Stratford
(Central line over until the LO platforms moved to the north of the
station) and West Ham (under the District / H&C until the North
Woolwich section shut).

North west London is all one mush to me ... *Kenton then. *Or
Northwick Park.

Mornington Crescent!


Talking of which, have the rules been changed to take Overground into
account? That should be the true definition of whether or not they
are part of the same system, ie "subject to the rules of Mornington
Crescent".

On 17 Sep, 10:15, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Sim" wrote



Some differences between Overground and Underground:
1. Third rail electrification rather than fourth, so not compatible
for through running.

The NLL is 25 kV OHLE between Acton and Camden Road, and between Dalston
Kingsland and Stratford, and will be all the way between Acton and Stratford
once the NLL refurbishment is complete. The WLL switches from 25 kV OHLE to
3rd rail between North Pole Junction and Shepherds Bush. Goblin remains
diesel worked (and if it is electrified it will be 25 kV OHLE.

BTW, the Broad Street to Dalston line, most of which is being incorporated
into the ELL, was originally 4th rail, but IIRC was converted to 3rd rail
before closure.

Peter

And all electrified parts of the current London Overground were four
rail at some point, weren't they? Ah, maybe not Dalston to Stratford.

On 17 Sep, 17:48, MIG wrote:
On 17 Sep, 16:22, rail wrote:





In message
* * * * * MIG wrote:

On 17 Sep, 14:28, Andy wrote:
On 17 Sep, 12:53, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:43, MIG wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:38, Jamie Thompson wrote:

...though of course, as pointed out elsewhere, the Underground goes
over the Overground at Whitechapel

And at Hampstead, Kilburn and Wembley.

I presume you mean the Met east of South Hampstead (never thought
really about it, but I guess you're right!), the Met at Kilburn yup,
but Wembley? The Met just south of Kenton, yes, but Wembley...where?

I agree that this should be Kenton, not Wembley and it also occurs at
Chiswick (District and Piccadilly over), north of Shepherd's Bush
(Hammersmith & City over), and in the recent past at Stratford
(Central line over until the LO platforms moved to the north of the
station) and West Ham (under the District / H&C until the North
Woolwich section shut).

North west London is all one mush to me ... *Kenton then. *Or
Northwick Park.

Mornington Crescent!

Talking of which, have the rules been changed to take Overground into
account? *That should be the true definition of whether or not they
are part of the same system, ie "subject to the rules of Mornington
Crescent".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

IMHO, you can include Overground only if you admit the offside
diagonal rule between South Acton and Richmond.