wrote

I believe the stretch from Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone is still
four rail, otherwise Bakerloo passengers would have to get out and
push!

Ditto Gunnersbury to Richmond for the District Line. However, on these joint
sections the fourth (centre) rail is at neutral voltage, with the third rail
at +750(?)V, whereas on the rest of LUL the fourth rail is at negative
voltage and the third rail at positive voltage - i.e, even apart from
loading gauge considerations, a LO or other National Rail DC train would not
run satisfactorily on LU lines.

Peter

"Arthur Figgis" wrote

People have been calling National Rail trains in London "overground" for a
lot longer than LOROL has existed. There was even an Overground Network
branding on a few routes, which lasted about as long as it took for people
to say "WTF are the new signs about?" - but many of the signs are still
there.

I suspect people started referring to the overground at least as long ago as
the time the Wombles emerged from Wimbledon Common. Actually, Wimbledon is a
good place to make the distinction between the underground route via Earls
Court and the other routes into Waterloo or Blackfriars.
http://www.toonhound.com/wombles.htm

Peter

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:34:15 +0100, Charles Ellson
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:21:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



MIG wrote:
On 17 Sep, 10:15, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Sim" wrote



Some differences between Overground and Underground:
1. Third rail electrification rather than fourth, so not compatible
for through running.

The NLL is 25 kV OHLE between Acton and Camden Road, and between Dalston
Kingsland and Stratford, and will be all the way between Acton and Stratford
once the NLL refurbishment is complete. The WLL switches from 25 kV OHLE to
3rd rail between North Pole Junction and Shepherds Bush. Goblin remains
diesel worked (and if it is electrified it will be 25 kV OHLE.

BTW, the Broad Street to Dalston line, most of which is being incorporated
into the ELL, was originally 4th rail, but IIRC was converted to 3rd rail
before closure.

Peter

And all electrified parts of the current London Overground were four
rail at some point, weren't they? Ah, maybe not Dalston to Stratford.

I believe the stretch from Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone is still
four rail, otherwise Bakerloo passengers would have to get out and
push!

It is 3rd rail with the 4th rail bonded to the running rail which
carries the traction return current. The LU 4-rail system does not
have a deliberate electrical connection between the 3rd/4th rails and
the running rails and is only loosely connected to earth/0v to enable
control equipment to detect earthing of either electric rail. A
further consequence of this arrangement is that trains running over
such sections require higher-rated insulation than is necessarily on
LU (660v to earth rather than 420v to earth) although IMU all current
LU stock
... has been so equipped since the 1960s.

I'm afraid all that technical theory stuff just goes over my head.
I'm a straightforward, practical sort of person, and as far as I'm
concerned, if you count the rails and there are four of them, then
there are four rails. That's just common sense, and no amount of
fancy electrical theory is going to change that.

On 18 Sep, 07:17, "
wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:34:15 +0100, Charles Ellson
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:21:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

MIG wrote:
On 17 Sep, 10:15, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Sim" wrote

Some differences between Overground and Underground:
1. Third rail electrification rather than fourth, so not compatible
for through running.

The NLL is 25 kV OHLE between Acton and Camden Road, and between Dalston
Kingsland and Stratford, and will be all the way between Acton and Stratford
once the NLL refurbishment is complete. The WLL switches from 25 kV OHLE to
3rd rail between North Pole Junction and Shepherds Bush. Goblin remains
diesel worked (and if it is electrified it will be 25 kV OHLE.

BTW, the Broad Street to Dalston line, most of which is being incorporated
into the ELL, was originally 4th rail, but IIRC was converted to 3rd rail
before closure.

Peter

And all electrified parts of the current London Overground were four
rail at some point, weren't they? *Ah, maybe not Dalston to Stratford.

I believe the stretch from Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone is still
four rail, otherwise Bakerloo passengers would have to get out and
push!

It is 3rd rail with the 4th rail bonded to the running rail which
carries the traction return current. The LU 4-rail system does not
have a deliberate electrical connection between the 3rd/4th rails and
the running rails and is only loosely connected to earth/0v to enable
control equipment to detect earthing of either electric rail. A
further consequence of this arrangement is that trains running over
such sections require higher-rated insulation than is necessarily on
LU (660v to earth rather than 420v to earth) although IMU all current
LU stock
... has been so equipped since the 1960s.

I'm afraid all that technical theory stuff just goes over my head.
I'm a straightforward, practical sort of person, and as far as I'm
concerned, if you count the rails and there are four of them, then
there are four rails. *That's just common sense, and no amount of
fancy electrical theory is going to change that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now let's be nice to each other! I did not know the details Charles
kindly provided, but it does make sense. Interestingly, not only does
fourth rail (however wired) exist as far north as Harrow, but the last
time I looked there was quite a lot left further on, although some of
it was lying rather dismally in the four foot rather than perched on
insulators. It was never formally removed, in other words, although
doubtless disconnected.

On the more general point on whether Overground is part of National
Rail, I suggest that it is, behind the scenes, a remarkable compromise/
fudge/whatever.

Consider: Overground is a TfL operation, and the concession was
awarded to LOROL by TfL. Other posters have already explained the
differences between a National Rail franchise and a concession like
Overground. Overground is funded and branded by TfL and included in
its operations for all public purposes. Overground is, of course,
Oyster compatible along with DLR and trams (and buses too, yes).
Station specs (staffing, equipment, appearance, branding) have been
officially described as comparable with the Underground (although not
all the upgrades are done yet).

On the other hand, most Overground trains run (or will run) over
Network Rail infrastructure, and on some sections they share the line
with freight traffic (or the true Underground ). South of New Cross at
least, Overground will presumably share its tracks with scheduled
National Rail passenger trains, too. One section, though (Dalston
Junction west curve to New Cross Gate/New Cross inclusive) is TfL
owned/maintained infrastructure.

The rolling stock was specified by TfL and is leased by TfL, but is
included in the NR Rolling Stock Library as Class 378/x, being yet
further variations of the Bombardier Electrostar series (and thus
thankfully built in Derby!).

Overground is also being treated by the Office of Rail Regulation as
part of National Rail: its statistics are included in National Rail
Trends just as if it was another franchise. The ORR does not report
the figures from other TfL rail systems, any more than it includes
Tyne & Wear Metro.

And another poster has also rightly pointed out the existence of 25kV
in various places, which is why dual-voltage roilling stock is needed.
To add a little savour, parts of the 25kV NLL route (Camden Road
area?) have third rail as well as OHLE -- a rare combination, I would
suggest.

If I came across such a compromise system in a foreign capital, I
would be intrigued.

As it is, it's in London. Hooray!

"Sim" wrote
Now let's be nice to each other! I did not know the details Charles
kindly provided, but it does make sense. Interestingly, not only does
fourth rail (however wired) exist as far north as Harrow, but the last
time I looked there was quite a lot left further on, although some of
it was lying rather dismally in the four foot rather than perched on
insulators. It was never formally removed, in other words, although
doubtless disconnected.

On the more general point on whether Overground is part of National
Rail, I suggest that it is, behind the scenes, a remarkable compromise/
fudge/whatever.

Consider: Overground is a TfL operation, and the concession was
awarded to LOROL by TfL. Other posters have already explained the
differences between a National Rail franchise and a concession like
Overground. Overground is funded and branded by TfL and included in
its operations for all public purposes. Overground is, of course,
Oyster compatible along with DLR and trams (and buses too, yes).
Station specs (staffing, equipment, appearance, branding) have been
officially described as comparable with the Underground (although not
all the upgrades are done yet).

On the other hand, most Overground trains run (or will run) over
Network Rail infrastructure, and on some sections they share the line
with freight traffic (or the true Underground ). South of New Cross at
least, Overground will presumably share its tracks with scheduled
National Rail passenger trains, too. One section, though (Dalston
Junction west curve to New Cross Gate/New Cross inclusive) is TfL
owned/maintained infrastructure.

The rolling stock was specified by TfL and is leased by TfL, but is
included in the NR Rolling Stock Library as Class 378/x, being yet
further variations of the Bombardier Electrostar series (and thus
thankfully built in Derby!).

Overground is also being treated by the Office of Rail Regulation as
part of National Rail: its statistics are included in National Rail
Trends just as if it was another franchise. The ORR does not report
the figures from other TfL rail systems, any more than it includes
Tyne & Wear Metro.

And another poster has also rightly pointed out the existence of 25kV
in various places, which is why dual-voltage roilling stock is needed.
To add a little savour, parts of the 25kV NLL route (Camden Road
area?) have third rail as well as OHLE -- a rare combination, I would
suggest.

If I came across such a compromise system in a foreign capital, I
would be intrigued.

As it is, it's in London. Hooray!

That seems like a reasonable summary. Now, can someone explain succinctly
why the smaller 'National Rail' stations between Queens Park and Harrow &
Wealdstone, used by LU and LO, which were previously Silverlink-branded, are
now signed as LU (rather than LO) stations?

"John Salmon" wrote in message
...
"Sim" wrote
Now let's be nice to each other! SNIP As it is, it's in London.
Hooray!

That seems like a reasonable summary. Now, can someone explain succinctly
why the smaller 'National Rail' stations between Queens Park and Harrow &
Wealdstone, used by LU and LO, which were previously Silverlink-branded,
are now signed as LU (rather than LO) stations?


The name Bakerloo might have something to do with it. AIUI, the TfL strategy
is to make the Bakerloo the primary service provider for this section, if
not the whole way to Watford Jn. This may be linked in some way with the
Metropolitan Line Watford branch extension to Watford Jn.

DW downunder

On 18 Sep, 09:52, "DW downunder" reply@newsgroup wrote:
"John Salmon" wrote in message

...

"Sim" wrote
Now let's be nice to each other! SNIP As it is, it's in London.
Hooray!

That seems like a reasonable summary. Now, can someone explain succinctly
why the smaller 'National Rail' stations between Queens Park and Harrow &
Wealdstone, used by LU and LO, which were previously Silverlink-branded,
are now signed as LU (rather than LO) stations?

The name Bakerloo might have something to do with it. AIUI, the TfL strategy
is to make the Bakerloo the primary service provider for this section, if
not the whole way to Watford Jn. This may be linked in some way with the
Metropolitan Line Watford branch extension to Watford Jn.

DW downunder

The decision was made to transfer these stations to Underground
management at the time Overground was being defined. The Bakerloo is
probably seen as the senior partner as far as Harrow now, and further
changes (already discussed) seem likely to make that even more so in
the future.

In the old days, Queen's Park was the last LT-managed station on the
route to Watford, which was firmly BR (and before that LMS) thereafter
all the way to Watford. The Bakerloo was the "guest".

From 1964 a decline set in as far as LT was concerned, until by the
1970s there was no Bakerloo north of Queen's Park except a handful in
the peaks. Then Stonebridge Park depot was built as part of the
splitting of the Bakerloo around the time the first part of the
Jubilee line opened (1979) and tube trains started running north of
Queen's Park more frequently again.

One thought: will Headstone Lane--Watford High Street inclusive also
be transferred to Underground management eventually, particularly
after Met trains start serving Watford HS on their way from Croxley to
Watford Junction?

Place your bets ...

On 18 Sep, 09:44, "John Salmon" wrote:
"Sim" wrote Now let's be nice to each other! I did not know the details Charles

kindly provided, but it does make sense. Interestingly, not only does
fourth rail (however wired) exist as far north as Harrow, but the last
time I looked there was quite a lot left further on, although some of
it was lying rather dismally in the four foot rather than perched on
insulators. It was never formally removed, in other words, although
doubtless disconnected.

Previous discussions have suggested that it is still there because it
is still connected. I think the running rails must be wired to the
fourth rail and then the fourth rail wired to earth in the way that
the running rails are in other third rail systems. (Not technical,
but I assume that it saved connecting the running rails for one sort
of train and duplicating the connections for another sort of train.)

Question: was this the system at Euston and Broad Street etc, ie
positive to earth, rather than a bit positive to a bit negative?

Presumably for an LU train, the difference between the rails is all
that matters, whereas for a three-rail train it's the difference
between positive and earth that matters, so a NR train on conventional
LU track would only be at 420 V or something?

On 18 Sep, 10:47, MIG wrote:
On 18 Sep, 09:44, "John Salmon" wrote:

"Sim" wrote Now let's be nice to each other! I did not know the details Charles

kindly provided, but it does make sense. Interestingly, not only does
fourth rail (however wired) exist as far north as Harrow, but the last
time I looked there was quite a lot left further on, although some of
it was lying rather dismally in the four foot rather than perched on
insulators. It was never formally removed, in other words, although
doubtless disconnected.

Previous discussions have suggested that it is still there because it
is still connected. *I think the running rails must be wired to the
fourth rail and then the fourth rail wired to earth in the way that
the running rails are in other third rail systems. *(Not technical,
but I assume that it saved connecting the running rails for one sort
of train and duplicating the connections for another sort of train.)

Question: was this the system at Euston and Broad Street etc, ie
positive to earth, rather than a bit positive to a bit negative?

Presumably for an LU train, the difference between the rails is all
that matters, whereas for a three-rail train it's the difference
between positive and earth that matters, so a NR train on conventional
LU track would only be at 420 V or something?

I really doubt that the old fourth rail is in circuit with anything.
Some is missing, and other sections are lying in the four foot. Not
much continuity there, I would have thought!

Had a trip from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington yesterday
afternoon - a bargain £1.10 with Oyster. Can anyone help with the
following queries?

Why are most LO station name and platform number boards marked with
'This is a temporary sign'? What's wrong with them?

New class 378 S- and 3-car stop signs are also appearing, some of
which are only 2m from the existing signs. I understand that there is
a need to move some NLL station S car stop signs ready for 4-car
operation, but why the mucking about on the WLL?

Compressors on the 313 I rode were incredibly loud, more so than on A
stock. For whatever reason the popping noise that I normally associate
with the driver cutting power is also made when accelerating - I can
rule out third rail gaps as it happens when leaving Willesden Junction
HL. I think Southern will live to regret taking on this fleet!

Judging from comments and queries from other pax e.g. "does this train
go to Camden Road?" overheard at CLJ, I think the assumption that most
pax are doing 2-3 station hops is incorrect. The three other occupants
of my bay from Willesden Junction hadn't left the train by Highbury.
The train - 17:30 ex-CLJ - had plenty of standees but was not crush
loaded. A non-scientific survey, but in conclusion seating in the 378s
will be totally inadequate: was a compromise of 2+1 seating considered?