On 05-Mar-12 13:14, Phil wrote:
Roland Perry writes:

There is no way to know by looking at the card number whether it does.

That's what we *could* do in the UK, by recognising a card as "Solo"
or "Electron". Now that they are branded as "VISA debit", it's
probably not possible to tell, although the cards are still incapable
(in theory) of pushing the bank account into overdraft. What we
haven't established in this conversation yet is how the banks achieve
that Indian Rope Trick if people buy something from (eg) a vending
machine that isn't online.

The machines in shops do know the card type, thats how the cashier
knows to ask if you want cashback or not (the machine prompts them).
They only ask if it is a debit card, not a credit card.

Really?

I deal with several merchants that have self-swipe terminals, and the
terminals ask _me_ if the card is debit or credit. If I press the
"credit" button, even when using my debit card, they do not ask for a
PIN or offer cash back. I've never tried pressing the "debit" button
when using my credit card since I can't remember the PIN.

Note that all (US) debit cards I've seen have the word "DEBIT" on their
face; I don't know if that's required in other countries as well. If
the cashier swipes the card for you, they _may_ be using that
information (and some ask the customer for the card type) to decide
whether to offer cash back.

In most cases, and it should be all, the cashier doesn't handle the
card and will not always see it before you put it into the machine.
Even then it will only be a glance.

Self-swipe is a relatively recent thing in the US. When I worked in
retail (at an electronics store), we had a fair number of cards come
back "PICK UP CARD", usually followed by the card thief running for the
exit. With self-swipe, the retailer can't be counted on to confiscate
the card--but perhaps that's not a major concern now that nearly all
merchants do online authorization.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 05-Mar-12 11:48, wrote:
On Mar 3, 3:45 pm, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
(* My personal rule is that one should never be paying for something
after one has finished using it. So, credit only makes sense for things
like education, housing, durable goods, etc. Not for train tickets,
certainly.)

My personal rule is the cost of the transaction. If there is no
charge to use the credit card when the bill is paid in full on time
(which is usually the case), then the credit card is a nice
convenience for a variety of reasons. In addition, some banks give
bonus points for heavy use of the card.

If you use it as a charge card (i.e. paying the bill in full every
month), that's not objectionable, provided you actually have the money
available at the time of the charge and using the card is merely a
matter of convenience, rather than delaying payment until the money is
available. Most people only get into trouble with _revolving_ credit.

Expenses promptly reimbursed by one's employer are another exception,
since it's really the employer's money being spent, not yours.

Returning to trains, at a recent train show, the merchants had radio
based credit card validators. They were wholly self contained and
didn't require WiFi or anything else. A power outlet was nice to
charge the battery but not necessary.

The technology to do this has been available for more than a decade, and
I've seen such terminals at several conventions over the years, though I
can't recall how long ago the first one was. There are now even card
reader and receipt printer add-ons for smartphones; I had a taxi driver
run my card that way a year or two ago.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk writes:

Really?

I deal with several merchants that have self-swipe terminals, and the
terminals ask _me_ if the card is debit or credit. If I press the
"credit" button, even when using my debit card, they do not ask for a
PIN or offer cash back. I've never tried pressing the "debit" button
when using my credit card since I can't remember the PIN.

Note that all (US) debit cards I've seen have the word "DEBIT" on their
face; I don't know if that's required in other countries as well. If
the cashier swipes the card for you, they _may_ be using that
information (and some ask the customer for the card type) to decide
whether to offer cash back.
In the UK our cards are mostly chip and pin, the terminal being on the
counter close to the customer. I have never been asked what type of card
I have, they just know and the type is often displayed on the screen
along with amount.

The cashier rarely gets close enough to see the card.

Inside McDonalds they usually walk away to get your food leaving you to
either put you card in the machine and enter your pin, when they come
back the till tells them you have paid, or then you pay cash. At drive
throughs they hand you the terminal, which is on a long telephone type
lead.

Only supermarkets/convinience stores offer cashback, as it reduces the
amount of cash they need to, pay to, bank. This is only on debit cards,
probably all sorts of consumer credit rules about giving cash on a
credit card.

Amex Cards are treated as a credit card by retailers, due mostly to
what it costs them, even though they are, usually, charge cards.

Phil

"Phil" wrote

Only supermarkets/convinience stores offer cashback, as it reduces the
amount of cash they need to, pay to, bank. This is only on debit cards,
probably all sorts of consumer credit rules about giving cash on a
credit card.

For debit cards they are charged per use, so it doesn't cost tem any more if
you use the card to pay for your shopping or if they give you cashback as
well. And, as you say, it saves them the cost of banking the cash. For
credit cards they are charged a percentage, so it would cost them to give
you cashback (and you'd be charged interest from day 1, whereas .uk credit
cards generally give you some sort of intrest-free period on purchases. I
don't think I've ever had to pay credit card interest.

Peter

wrote:

Of course, there are robberies where the victim is forced to use their
ATM card to withdraw cash for the robbers at gunpoint. If, for
whatever, the victim is unable to do this (too scared to remember PIN,
not enough cash in account, etc.), the victim may get shot.

The ATM daily limit is adjustable as well, if you are willing to live with a
lower number.

wrote:

Presumably they are charged less by the clearing house on
debit card transactions.

They were. Credit transactions used to average around 3% of the total, whereas
debit transactions were set at a fixed amount - around .25 on average depending
on the size of the store. So it didn't cost the store any more of offer cash
back and in fact may have reduced their cash handling (counting and transport)
expenses.

This led to banks encouraging consumers to "press the credit key" for debit
transactions and offering cash back on such transactions, where stores would
encourage consumers to default to debit sales by programing the terminals to
assume debit unless cancelled (aka Kohls).

The clearing houses progressively raised the cost of debit transactions which
led to some lawsuits by Walmart and others, and then the Dodd Frank Consumer
Extortion bill, so the economics have changed.

In message , at 16:07:13 on Mon, 5 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Returning to trains, at a recent train show, the merchants had radio
based credit card validators. They were wholly self contained and
didn't require WiFi or anything else. A power outlet was nice to
charge the battery but not necessary.

The technology to do this has been available for more than a decade, and
I've seen such terminals at several conventions over the years, though I
can't recall how long ago the first one was.

I've seen technology demonstrations of similar technology at conventions
since the early 90's. But what they often forget to tell you is that
they've parked a mobile base station round back, to provide the
coverage.

There are now even card reader and receipt printer add-ons for
smartphones; I had a taxi driver run my card that way a year or two ago.

There's lots of things you can do if you know you have the radio
coverage. I've even given TV interviews from home, demonstrating "the
future of mobile data". On that occasion the telco had installed a
portable relay station on my garage roof!
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:52:32 on Mon, 5 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Self-swipe is a relatively recent thing in the US.

It's not a self swipe, more of a "self insert", but the customer has
been doing this in the UK ever since C&P terminals were introduced.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:43:53 on Mon, 5 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
Only supermarkets/convinience stores offer cashback, as it reduces the
amount of cash they need to, pay to, bank. This is only on debit cards,
probably all sorts of consumer credit rules about giving cash on a
credit card.

The problem with giving cash-back on a credit card is that the
cardholder is charged a different rate of interest on cash advances, and
often a fee (and even a zero interest-free period). As a customer, you
wouldn't want that 'penalty' applying to whole of your transaction,
goods as well as cash.

Amex Cards are treated as a credit card by retailers, due mostly to
what it costs them, even though they are, usually, charge cards.

Many of them are credit cards now.
--
Roland Perry

On Mar 5, 1:21*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In the UK I think legislation limits the consumer's risk to £50.

There are various legal protections in the U.S. However, dealing with
the mega banks who process charge accounts can be difficult. Just
reaching someone by phone can be a pain going through the phone tree.