John Levine wrote:

Someone who seems to have reading comprehension issues said:

John can never resist making an ad hominem attack.

Robert Bonomi wrote:
Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen Sprunk wrote:

There is no way for the terminal to know whether the Visa/MC/etc. number
presented is a credit, debit or charge card. A card processor _may_ be
able to deduce it from other information, but only the issuing bank
knows for sure.

I have no idea how you come up with this stuff, but the type of card,
not to mention who issued it, is built into the number range itself.

Adam 'knows not that of which he speaks'.

Steven is correct. . . .

While your story is lovely, the spectre Stephen raised was about
gift cards, not debit cards generally. The Visa list posted by the
OP has an identifiable range for gift cars.

In message , at 19:35:20 on Fri, 2 Mar
2012, John Levine remarked:
They have gift cards, but only mag stripe, and neither visibly numbered
nor containing a chip-and-pin. The latter is going to raise the bar, for
gift cards masquerading as credit/debit cards, in the UK.

Perhaps you would enjoy a Travelex Cash Passport, a chip+pin
reloadable prepaid card. They're denominated in EUR or GBP but sold
only in the U.S. The advertising emphasizes the acceptance problems
that non-chip cards can have in Europe.

The card is "free" but the only way to load money into it is
to exchange USD at a dreadful exchange rate.

http://www.travelex.com/US/Products/Cash-Passport/

Travelex tried to palm one of those off when I asked for Australian
dollars, but that entirely misses the point for Brits who already have
C&P cards - when travelling abroad I need some *cash*, if an ATM's
accessible I could use an existing card.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:14:16 on Fri, 2 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
The train companies already don't accept Solo and Electron[1], because
they (the train companies) don't have online verification, so they'd
just add those sorts of cards to that list.

[1] Debit cards for accounts with no overdraft facilities and/or
impoverished customers, like students, and under-18's.

The same problem could be had with an near-/over-limit credit card,
whereas one of those evil debit cards could have plenty of funds
available. It seems a rather arbitrary distinction.

The difference is that someone with a credit card has been shown to be
eligible for credit *at all*. All you are doing is allowing a slightly
elastic limit. The debit cards are for people who don't qualify for
credit, either because of their age or their history.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:27:42 on Fri, 2 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
This Web page discusses payment methods that also apply to paying
on train: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...t_methods.html

Credit/Debit/Charge Cards

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards
such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.
Some train companies also accept Diners Club International,
Solo and Electron.

Nothing on this page says that gift cards are accepted. Gosh. They
must know the card number ranges!

Why would they care if it's a gift card? A card is a card; as long as
the transaction is authorized, that's all that matters.

That's the big "if". There are many ticket vending machines, and
portable machines, which are simply not "online", so they can't
authorise at all.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
at 15:27:42 on Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:

This Web page discusses payment methods that also apply to paying
on train: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...t_methods.html

Credit/Debit/Charge Cards

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards
such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.
Some train companies also accept Diners Club International,
Solo and Electron.

Nothing on this page says that gift cards are accepted. Gosh. They
must know the card number ranges!

Why would they care if it's a gift card? A card is a card; as long as
the transaction is authorized, that's all that matters.

That's the big "if". There are many ticket vending machines, and
portable machines, which are simply not "online", so they can't
authorise at all.

That was Stephen's point to begin with, when he raised the spectre of
use of gift cards that cannot be authorized in such circumstances, that
cannot be debited to pay the fare.

Suddenly, he's changing his position.

On 03-Mar-12 02:45, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:14:16 on Fri, 2 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
The train companies already don't accept Solo and Electron[1], because
they (the train companies) don't have online verification, so they'd
just add those sorts of cards to that list.

[1] Debit cards for accounts with no overdraft facilities and/or
impoverished customers, like students, and under-18's.

The same problem could be had with an near-/over-limit credit card,
whereas one of those evil debit cards could have plenty of funds
available. It seems a rather arbitrary distinction.

The difference is that someone with a credit card has been shown to be
eligible for credit *at all*. All you are doing is allowing a slightly
elastic limit. The debit cards are for people who don't qualify for
credit, either because of their age or their history.

Pretty much everyone qualifies for a credit card, at least in the US.
Those with poor credit scores get a low limit and high interest rate,
but they can still get a card. If nothing else, they can get a
"secured" credit card. (That type of card may be unique to the US.)

IMHO, in most* cases using credit shows fiscal irresponsibility because
the person is spending money they do not have. If anything, I would be
more likely to trust a _debit_ card user.

(* My personal rule is that one should never be paying for something
after one has finished using it. So, credit only makes sense for things
like education, housing, durable goods, etc. Not for train tickets,
certainly.)

Note that "credit" in the US generally means _revolving_ credit; if you
are referring to "charge" cards that have to be paid in full every
month, that is a different matter. However, charge cards are rare in
the US; even AmEx, the best-known charge card brand, now offers
revolving cards to profit from Americans' irresponsibility.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 03-Mar-12 02:46, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:27:42 on Fri, 2 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
This Web page discusses payment methods that also apply to paying
on train: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...t_methods.html

Credit/Debit/Charge Cards

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards
such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.
Some train companies also accept Diners Club International,
Solo and Electron.

Nothing on this page says that gift cards are accepted. Gosh. They
must know the card number ranges!

Why would they care if it's a gift card? A card is a card; as long as
the transaction is authorized, that's all that matters.

That's the big "if". There are many ticket vending machines, and
portable machines, which are simply not "online", so they can't
authorise at all.

Then the merchant is taking a risk on each transaction, regardless of
the card type.

Given the cheap and ubiquitous mobile data networks, there is no excuse
for not being able to do online authorization. (If the rail network has
spotty signal coverage, this will help motivate them to fix that, which
also results in better service for customers and therefore the ability
to increase fares.)

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

In message , at 14:45:38 on Sat, 3 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Pretty much everyone qualifies for a credit card, at least in the US.
Those with poor credit scores get a low limit and high interest rate,
but they can still get a card. If nothing else, they can get a
"secured" credit card. (That type of card may be unique to the US.)

Last time I looked into this, about half the UK's adult population is
regarded as "not credit worthy". Although it's easier to get store
credit, mail order catalogue credit, and "Hire purchase credit" for
durable items, than a credit card for general use.

IMHO, in most* cases using credit shows fiscal irresponsibility because
the person is spending money they do not have. If anything, I would be
more likely to trust a _debit_ card user.

The problem with the (former) holders of Solo/Electron cards is that
often they are minor and therefore pursuing debts against them is
tricky. So they need a bank account and debit card which cannot go
overdrawn. In the UK we don't usually have parents co-signing in such
circumstance, other than perhaps for the rental of a property for a
student. Then there are the folks whose bank won't allow them an
overdraft because they haven't been shown to be fiscally responsible.

As a result, there's an aura of literally "poor man's card" hanging over
all debit cards.

A lot of credit card holders use them in effect as charge cards, as a
substitute for the "monthly credit" that the middle classes used to get
from tradesmen.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 14:49:32 on Sat, 3 Mar 2012,
Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Why would they care if it's a gift card? A card is a card; as long as
the transaction is authorized, that's all that matters.

That's the big "if". There are many ticket vending machines, and
portable machines, which are simply not "online", so they can't
authorise at all.

Then the merchant is taking a risk on each transaction, regardless of
the card type.

There's always a small risk, and sometimes the ticket vendor will make a
[mobile] phone call if a particular cardholder raises suspicions. But as
we don't have these faux-credit-card gift cards here, and people with
credit cards and bank accounts that allow overdrafts usually do pay
these off, the only class where there's a serious worry is the
no-overdraft debit card holders.

Given the cheap and ubiquitous mobile data networks, there is no excuse
for not being able to do online authorization.

They aren't cheap and ubiquitous enough. In particular, the equipment
would need replacing (not just simple upgrading). I don't believe data
networks are ubiquitous in the USA either, if the very spotty mobile
phone coverage more than a few miles from major cities and highways is
anything to go by.
--
Roland Perry