I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been
overcharged. I've registered the card online and checked all the details
of journeys I made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem
from my point of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did
touch out resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within
the Tfl area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

However how this happened is what I consider unavoidable - I had a valid
National Rail ticket to Ealing Broadway where I changed to the Central
Line and intended to use my Oystercard. I was already inside the ticket
barrier/touch in button, merely changing platforms and saw no Oyster
readers at the entrance to the Central line platforms. If I failed to spot
them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this), but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

John

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:
Not living within
the Tfl area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

If I failed to spot them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

"John" wrote in message
...
I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been overcharged.
I've registered the card online and checked all the details of journeys I
made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem from my point
of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did touch out
resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within the Tfl
area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e. charge more
than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to say the least,
as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay. Is this fact
widely known?


Its on page 3 of the fares guide - you did pick a copy up?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf

"Failure to touch in and out correctly will result
in you paying a maximum cash fare. This will
not count towards your daily price cap"

I guess TfL would argue that the regular warnings about touching in and out
are enough though, and the cap is the max you can pay if you use the system
properly.

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.


TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and it is currently set at £4
which is indeed the maximum you will pay for a single Underground fare
if you buy a cash fare (i.e. buy a paper single LU ticket).

Note that this rises to £5 if one passes through the gates at some
National Rail stations on routes where Oyster PAYG is valid (e.g.
Liverpool Street or Euston) and one fails to touch-out at the end of
the journey or have already failed to touch-in at the start of the
journey.

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in) - and
yes, this is a widely known fact, at least within London.


If I failed to spot them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

I can also confirm this.


but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U


Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

~ ~ ~

The only place I have come across where there are no standalone Oyster
readers within the gated area is at Blackfriars (and by extension at
City Thameslink - see below). Oyster PAYG is valid on the central
section of FCC Thameslink between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge and
West Hampstead (and so is presumably also valid on Southeastern
between E&C and Blackfriars as well).

So if one was arriving at Blackfriars using a paper rail-only ticket
to "London Terminals" and wanted to continue further north then one
would have to exit the gates with the paper ticket and then re-enter
using Oyster PAYG. In fact "London Terminals" tickets are valid on
journeys from points south (only) as far as City Thameslink, so again
if one wanted to change over from a paper ticket to Oyster PAYG there
then they would have to exit the and then re-enter the gates.

On 15 Feb, 15:59, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"John" wrote in message

...

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been overcharged.
I've registered the card online and checked all the details of journeys I
made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem from my point
of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did touch out
resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within the Tfl
area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e. charge more
than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to say the least,
as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay. Is this fact
widely known?

Its on page 3 of the fares guide - you did pick a copy up?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...nd-tickets-08-...

"Failure to touch in and out correctly will result
in you paying a maximum cash fare. This will
not count towards your daily price cap"

I guess TfL would argue that the regular warnings about touching in and out
are enough though, and the cap is the max you can pay if you use the system
properly.

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

I strongly suspect that implementing the 'max cash fare' was always
part of the Oyster gameplan, it just wasn't implemented at first so as
to give users unfamiliar with the whole idea of smartcard ticketing
some time to get used to the system.

On 15 Feb, 15:59, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"John" wrote in message

...

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been overcharged.
I've registered the card online and checked all the *details of journeys I
made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem from my point
of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did touch out
resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within the Tfl
area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e. charge more
than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to say the least,
as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay. Is this fact
widely known?

Its on page 3 of the fares guide - you did pick a copy up?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...nd-tickets-08-...

"Failure to touch in and out correctly will result
in you paying a maximum cash fare. This will
not count towards your daily price cap"

I guess TfL would argue that the regular warnings about touching in and out
are enough though, and the cap is the max you can pay if you use the system
properly.

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

The "benefit" for me was that I paid the correct fare without having
to get off the train and touch in/out at the point where I crossed
into the area covered by my paper travelcard. Now I get ripped off if
I don't go through that ridiculous exercise.

On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and it is currently set at £4
which is indeed the maximum you will pay for a single Underground fare
if you buy a cash fare (i.e. buy a paper single LU ticket).

Note that this rises to £5 if one passes through the gates at some
National Rail stations on routes where Oyster PAYG is valid (e.g.
Liverpool Street or Euston) and one fails to touch-out at the end of
the journey or have already failed to touch-in at the start of the
journey.

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in) - and
yes, this is a widely known fact, at least within London.



If I failed to spot *them, fair enough, (can anyone confirm this)

They're kind of behind you as you go through the arch into the Central
Line area.

I can also confirm this.



but surely I'm not expected
to pass through the barriers twice when all I wanted to do was change
trains. Can somebody please clarify this.

They've specially provided freestanding readers for people like you at
just about every NR/tube interchange. You're meant to make sure you
use them (even if it means hunting for them) every time you want to
pay for a journey with PAYG.

U

Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.

Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.



~ ~ ~

The only place I have come across where there are no standalone Oyster
readers within the gated area is at Blackfriars (and by extension at
City Thameslink - see below). Oyster PAYG is valid on the central
section of FCC Thameslink between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge and
West Hampstead (and so is presumably also valid on Southeastern
between E&C and Blackfriars as well).

So if one was arriving at Blackfriars using a paper rail-only ticket
to "London Terminals" and wanted to continue further north then one
would have to exit the gates with the paper ticket and then re-enter
using Oyster PAYG. In fact "London Terminals" tickets are valid on
journeys from points south (only) as far as City Thameslink, so again
if one wanted to change over from a paper ticket to Oyster PAYG there
then they would have to exit the and then re-enter the gates.

On 15 Feb, 18:29, MIG wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:59, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"John" wrote:

I only use my PAYG card very infrequently, but think I've been overcharged.
I've registered the card online and checked all the details of journeys I
made on one day recently - and they are correct. The problem from my point
of view relates to a journey where I didn't touch in but did touch out
resulting in a further £4 charge for that day. Not living within the Tfl
area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e. charge more
than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to say the least,
as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay. Is this fact
widely known?

Its on page 3 of the fares guide - you did pick a copy up?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...nd-tickets-08-...

"Failure to touch in and out correctly will result
in you paying a maximum cash fare. This will
not count towards your daily price cap"

I guess TfL would argue that the regular warnings about touching in and out
are enough though, and the cap is the max you can pay if you use the system
properly.

The 'max cash fare' wasn't part of the system originally, but PAYG users
quickly discovered the benefits of only touching in at one end of a journey,
so that loophole got closed pretty quickly...

Paul S

The "benefit" for me was that I paid the correct fare without having
to get off the train and touch in/out at the point where I crossed
into the area covered by my paper travelcard. Now I get ripped off if
I don't go through that ridiculous exercise.


I have to say that if I regularly travelled outside the zones of my
Travelcard (on Oyster PAYG routes) I would just get my Travelcard on
Oyster.

I am well aware of the worries about surveillance that Oyster
potentially brings (and that you share) - however thus far there
haven't been any properly justified allegations (as opposed to
conspiracy theory talk) that travel data is being misused or widely
used for surveillance purposes by TPTB. However let's look at some
facts...

* "The usage history of each card is retained on an eight week rolling
basis".
* After eight weeks, "anonymised journey information is retained for
research purposes".
* Only "a limited number of authorised individuals within TfL can
access Oyster card data and no external organisations have direct
access to the data".
* Requests for such information are "assessed strictly in accordance
with the requirements of the Data Protection Act on a case by case
basis".
* Police requests for data are "submitted in accordance with guidance
from the Association of Chief Police Officers and are coordinated by
TfL's Information Access and Compliance Team."


The quotes are from TfL's responses to a letter from 'Coofer Cat' (who
actually appears to be a gent named Richard Bolton) - the questions he
had about Oyster were dealt with by TfL under the Freedom of
Information Act. You can read more on his website, the page concerning
all this is he
http://www.coofercat.com/wiki/OysterCardRFI

Note that the comments at the bottom are not his but those of readers.
Some contain unfounded allegations - in particular the notion that
"lots of people at EDS or Cubic Transportation Systems [...] have
access to the details" - read on for more on that.


I wish to make clear that I am certainly not one of these people who
sit back and say 'the authorities know best' or some such - however I
am pretty confident that Oyster travel data is well controlled, and
isn't leaking out here there and everywhere nor being used by the
police to monitor our every movement. TfL will be very keen to ensure
this remains the case, as they will wish to ensure that the public
retains confidence in the system.

If anyone has worries about their Oyster data then perhaps they might
wish to look closer to home first - e.g. a suspicious spouse, who
could physically take an Oyster card to a Tube ticket machine to see
the journey history (last 10 journeys at most).

Otherwise - and the following can only be done with a registered
Oyster card - they could gain access to the online Oyster account to
query the journey history there (though only PAYG journeys, not those
covered by Travelcards or Bus Passes), or get a print out of the
complete Journey History sent by post from TfL by calling the Oyster
helpline and giving them your details including your security answer.

Someone aware of these possibilities could of course take suitable
precautions.


All in all I really don't see Oyster as a spectacularly malevolent
tool of surveillance. Using an unregistered Oyster might quell some of
these concerns.

All that said, if I was heavily involved in the campaign against the
arms trade for example, I might think twice about using Oyster - but I
suspect that would merely be paranoia at work, unless something I was
planning (e.g. barricading a Saudi diplomat inside an arms fair) was
perceived as a genuine thread to the state/public order etc.

However I would be more inclined to focus my concern on the issues
surrounding how data might be handled by ATOC and the private train
and bus companies in the upcoming ITSO smartcard schemes (which
presumably will all work together - though there's no guarantee of
that). Will they all be as rigorous as TfL appear to be when it comes
to handling sensitive data, could they attempt to milk it for
marketing purposes, will each company have extensive access to a co-
ordinated national database if there is to be one etc etc?

The logic is simple - the system needs to know where you began and
ended your journey so it can charge you accordingly. If it doesn't
know this, it cannot charge you accordingly, so you get hit with the
maximum fare. As TfL say (on posters, in leaflets and during regular
PA announcements) "always remember to touch-in and touch-out" (though
note that when using buses and trams you only need to touch in)

Unless you are using a tram at Wimbledon, where it all goes out the window.

Everytime I have crossed from LU to Overground with Oyster, I have ended up
being stung - what is the advice here? Touch at the interchange station so
it knows you have been there, even though you are not exiting? I just get
onto an LO train and touch out at the eventual destination - and always end
up with "Seek Assistance" and all sorts of peculiar fares and journeys in my
history. I have tried both ways, and can't work out what I am doing wrong.
Neither, evidently, can LO staff.

Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

Best WIshes,
LEWIS

In message of Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:30:13 in
uk.transport.london, Lew 1 writes

[snip]

Actually, while I am here, can someone please explain to me why my Oyster
card regularly opens gates, but then flashes up "Seek Assistance" while I am
crossing through? If there is a problem, why does it open the gates? What
does it all mean?!

I suspect it may be a code 94 as a result of sliding a card across the
reader rather than placing it.

I raised a similar matter in
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...thread/thread/
37ceb57db7d39f6e/3db267321569c894?lnk=st&q=#3db267321569c894

I complained to TfL but got nothing coherent in response.


Best WIshes,
LEWIS



--
Walter Briscoe