On Nov 29, 11:01*am, Clive Page wrote:

Fortunately, because of an earlier thread in this newsgroup, I was able
to readhttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/singlefares/6769.aspx
but that URL does not seem to be linked from anywhere else on the TfL
site (and I've rooted around for some time). *I wonder how anyone who
does not read this newsgroup is expected to find this document.

The breadcrumb trail on the left hand side of the page hints at how
you can find it - but, for reference:
from www.tfl.gov.uk, click Tickets at the top of the page; under Fares
and Tickets click Single fares; then on the left hand side, National
Rail; and finally Discounted daily price capping - Railcards. Clear as
mud, I'm sure you'll agree.

I also thought that I saw somewhere that the reduced price cap does not
apply to travel on buses when using a NR railcard - not all that
unreasonable I guess. *But I can't find this reference any more, and I
haven't the faintest idea how it would apply if you were to use some
combination of buses and trains during the day.

I can attest to the fact that the discounted capping works on buses in
exactly the same way as regular Oyster capping.
Last year, the cost of Z2 one day off-peak price capping with the NR
railcard discount was less than the cost of a one day bus and tram
cap, and provided you travelled after 0930, the lower fare applied.
(This situation probably will occur again next year, though the 2010
railcard discounted price caps haven't yet been published.)

I also had similar trouble getting the discount loaded onto my Oyster
card, as I posted here back in February. Various stations shrugged,
told me it wasn't possible, or tried to make me fill in a registration
form again; Shepherds Bush Central Line eventually pressed the right
combination of buttons with the minimum of fuss.

In message
,
martin writes
The breadcrumb trail on the left hand side of the page hints at how
you can find it - but, for reference:
from www.tfl.gov.uk, click Tickets at the top of the page; under Fares
and Tickets click Single fares; then on the left hand side, National
Rail; and finally Discounted daily price capping - Railcards. Clear as
mud, I'm sure you'll agree.

Thanks. I don't know how I didn't manage to explore that particular arm
of the maze.

I can attest to the fact that the discounted capping works on buses in
exactly the same way as regular Oyster capping.

Hmm, that's odd as it isn't supposed to. At least from my reading of
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/9261.aspx
which says:quote

National Railcard price capping discounts do not apply if you only
travel by bus or tram. However, if you travel by bus or tram as well as
Tube, DLR, London Overground and some National Rail services, any bus or
tram journeys will count towards the daily price cap.
/quote

Which means, I guess that there are situations in which by taking a
short tube/rail journey you might reduce your total fare for the day. Or
have I misunderstood it?

--
Clive Page

As someone who lives well outside the Oyster area, my personal experiences
of this are as follows:

1. It was only thanks to this group that I was aware of the (senior)
railcard discount at all.
2. The discount was loaded first time at Paddington (Bakerloo) and second
time at Liverpool Street without problem.
3. Although I was asked to show my railcard, no mention was made on either
occasion that this discount was not forever, so this is something that
staff need to mention to customers
4. Again thanks to a recent post to this group I now know the discount has
to be reloaded whenever the railcard expires.

Finally I am still not certain of the validity of Oyster Off-Peak (with or
without the railcard discount) particularly whether this is all day after
9.30 or whether there is an evening restriction.


Regards JKB
"Can't you see I'm busy. I'm doing an application"

"John" wrote in message
news
Finally I am still not certain of the validity of Oyster Off-Peak (with or
without the railcard discount) particularly whether this is all day after
9.30 or whether there is an evening restriction.


This is not immediately obvious, and has been a regular discussion point
here.
With Oyster PAYG you have to look at 'individual journeys' and 'daily price
capping' as two seperate things.

There are peak single fares and offpeak single fares. These vary with the
time of day as follows:

Peak (used to be called higher rate) 0630 - 0930 and 1600 - 1900
Offpeak (used to be called lower rate) all other times

There is then Peak and Offpeak daily capping, this follows the same pattern
as a daily travelcard, ie pre 0930 is peak, and after 0930 is offpeak. Same
as National Rail peak/offpeak as you'd expect as well...

If your first touch in takes place before 0930, all your peak and offpeak
daily fares will be added up and capped at the daily Peak value.

If your first touch in takes place after 0930, all your peak and offpeak
daily fares will be added up and capped at the Offpeak value. Effectively,
as long as you don't touch in until after 0930, the afternoon peak fares
simply make you reach the offpeak daily cap quicker.

Hope this of help...

Paul S

On 2 Dec, 17:23, "Paul Scott" wrote:
If your first *touch in takes place before 0930, all your peak and offpeak
daily fares will be added up and capped at the daily Peak value.

If your first touch in takes place after 0930, all your peak and offpeak
daily fares will be added up and capped at the Offpeak value. Effectively,
as long as you don't touch in until after 0930, the afternoon peak fares
simply make you reach the offpeak daily cap quicker.

Er... it has nothing do do with when you first touch. The basic rule
is that each journey you pay for contributes to all of the possible
caps that might apply, and if any of those caps is reached you only
pay the difference (or zero).

Journeys made before 9.30 contribute only to the peak cap, while
journeys made after contribute to both the off-peak and peak caps. So
your sum-total of journeys made all-day will never exceed the peak
cap, while the sum-total of journeys made after 9:30 never exceeds the
off-peak cap.

In practice, the way it works is: If you spend more than the
difference between the two caps before 9:30, you'll end up capped at
the peak cap. If you spend less (or nothing), your journeys after 9:30
are collectively capped at the off-peak cap.

This is all also done separately for each combination of zones (plus
bus/tram-only), with the lowest possible fare applying.

I think we've just learnt why TfL gloss over this detail in their
literature.

U

Mr Thant wrote:
On 2 Dec, 17:23, "Paul Scott" wrote:
If your first touch in takes place before 0930, all your peak and
offpeak daily fares will be added up and capped at the daily Peak
value.

If your first touch in takes place after 0930, all your peak and
offpeak daily fares will be added up and capped at the Offpeak
value. Effectively, as long as you don't touch in until after 0930,
the afternoon peak fares simply make you reach the offpeak daily cap
quicker.

Er... it has nothing do do with when you first touch. The basic rule
is that each journey you pay for contributes to all of the possible
caps that might apply, and if any of those caps is reached you only
pay the difference (or zero).


Surely the point is that if 'first touch in that day' is later than 0930 the
peak daily cap becomes irrelevant? That is what I was trying to get across.
And the time of touching in is very relevant, because that determines the
charge, not the actual journey start time...

Paul S

On 2 Dec, 19:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Mr Thant wrote:
On 2 Dec, 17:23, "Paul Scott" wrote:
If your first touch in takes place before 0930, all your peak and
offpeak daily fares will be added up and capped at the daily Peak
value.

If your first touch in takes place after 0930, all your peak and
offpeak daily fares will be added up and capped at the Offpeak
value. Effectively, as long as you don't touch in until after 0930,
the afternoon peak fares simply make you reach the offpeak daily cap
quicker.

Er... it has nothing do do with when you first touch. The basic rule
is that each journey you pay for contributes to all of the possible
caps that might apply, and if any of those caps is reached you only
pay the difference (or zero).

Surely the point is that if 'first touch in that day' is later than 0930 the
peak daily cap becomes irrelevant? That is what I was trying to get across.
And the time of touching in is very relevant, because that determines the
charge, not the actual journey start time...

It would also be irrelevant if the total charge before 0930 was less
than the difference between the peak and off-peak caps. Touching
before 0930 doesn't mean that you will be subsequently charged up to
the peak cap, only to the off-peak cap plus your first fare.

On 2 Dec, 19:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Surely the point is that if 'first touch in that day' is later than 0930 the
peak daily cap becomes irrelevant? That is what I was trying to get across.
And the time of touching in is very relevant, because that determines the
charge, not the actual journey start time...

It's this part I disagree with:

"If your first touch in takes place before 0930, all your peak and
offpeak
daily fares will be added up and capped at the daily Peak value. "

If (hypothetically) the peak cap were £6 and the off-peak cap were £3,
if you were to make one £1 journey before 9.30am, trips after 9.30
would still be capped at £3, for a total cost for the day of £4.

U

On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 12:23:35 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote:

On 2 Dec, 19:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Surely the point is that if 'first touch in that day' is later than 0930 the
peak daily cap becomes irrelevant? That is what I was trying to get across.
And the time of touching in is very relevant, because that determines the
charge, not the actual journey start time...

It's this part I disagree with:

"If your first touch in takes place before 0930, all your peak and
offpeak
daily fares will be added up and capped at the daily Peak value. "

If (hypothetically) the peak cap were £6 and the off-peak cap were £3,
if you were to make one £1 journey before 9.30am, trips after 9.30
would still be capped at £3, for a total cost for the day of £4.

If from 2nd January suppose I board a 405 bus in Redhill just after
9am and use my PAYG Oyster to travel to Croydon, and onwards to
Victoria by tram and District Line. This means that the off-peak cap
would be applied?

However if I alighted at Coulsdon South to go to Victoria by train and
touched in at Coulsdon South before 9.30 would the different peak time
on rail override the bus cap time?
--
Stuart Johnson in Peterhead, Scotland
To reply direct remove FILTER from

Mr Thant wrote:
On 2 Dec, 19:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Surely the point is that if 'first touch in that day' is later than
0930 the peak daily cap becomes irrelevant? That is what I was
trying to get across. And the time of touching in is very relevant,
because that determines the charge, not the actual journey start
time...

It's this part I disagree with:

"If your first touch in takes place before 0930, all your peak and
offpeak
daily fares will be added up and capped at the daily Peak value. "

If (hypothetically) the peak cap were £6 and the off-peak cap were £3,
if you were to make one £1 journey before 9.30am, trips after 9.30
would still be capped at £3, for a total cost for the day of £4.

Yes I follow that now thanks, it would have been better to say
'up to a possible maximum of the Peak cap'?
Makes more sense with the figures. Just hope I haven't lost the OP...

Paul S