Hi everyone.

This is probably a very obvious question that's been dealt with dozens
of times already, but Google doesn't seem to be turning anything up.

Currently, if you own a paper point-to-point season ticket, and want to
extend an off-peak return journey beyond its furthest point, you can
buy, from your local station, an off-peak cheap day return for the
excess portion before you start your journey.

For eaxmple, say you had a season ticket between Gipsy Hill and Croydon
because that's where you live and/or work, but you want to visit Sutton
one weekend to do your shopping, because that's less of a dump than
Croydon. You can buy an an off-peak cheap day return from Croydon to
Sutton at the Gipsy Hill ticket office.

What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are
abolished next year? Since AIUI point-to-point seasons won't be
available under Oyster next year, and will continue to be only issued on
paper tickets, we won't even have the luxury of using those newfangled
OEP things. Instead the choice seems to be between either

1) buying a full-price peak-hour anytime return for the excess portion
before starting the journey even though that's a more expensive fare,

2) travelling the first section using the season, getting out of the
train at West Croydon, going to the ticket office there, using your
season to let you out of the barriers if theyi're in use, touching in
with Oyster, returning to the platform, waiting for the next train, and
continuing to Sutton,

or 3) leaving the season at home and just using Oyster PAYG all the way
even though that means paying twice for the bit covered by the season.

Those people moaining about OEPs just don't know how lucky they really
are...

On 7 Dec, 01:30, "solar penguin" wrote:
Hi everyone.

This is probably a very obvious question that's been dealt with dozens
of times already, but Google doesn't seem to be turning anything up.

Currently, if you own a paper point-to-point season ticket, and want to
extend an off-peak return journey beyond its furthest point, you can
buy, from your local station, an off-peak cheap day return for the
excess portion before you start your journey.

For eaxmple, say you had a season ticket between Gipsy Hill and Croydon
because that's where you live and/or work, but you want to visit Sutton
one weekend to do your shopping, because that's less of a dump than
Croydon. *You can buy an an off-peak cheap day return from Croydon to
Sutton at the Gipsy Hill ticket office.

What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are
abolished next year? *Since AIUI point-to-point seasons won't be
available under Oyster next year, and will continue to be only issued on
paper tickets, we won't even have the luxury of using those newfangled
OEP things. *Instead the choice seems to be between either

1) buying a full-price peak-hour anytime return for the excess portion
before starting the journey even though that's a more expensive fare,

2) travelling the first section using the season, getting out of the
train at West Croydon, going to the ticket office there, using your
season to let you out of the barriers if theyi're in use, touching in
with Oyster, returning to the platform, waiting for the next train, and
continuing to Sutton,

or 3) leaving the season at home and just using Oyster PAYG all the way
even though that means paying twice for the bit covered by the season.

Those people moaining about OEPs just don't know how lucky they really
are...

That's exactly the situation now when extending a journey on LU with a
paper travelcard.

It's not a problem.

Having to get off the train to touch in and out is perfectly
acceptable.

Now, never again question the benefits of and benevolent intentions
behind Oyster.

MIG wrote:


That's exactly the situation now when extending a journey on LU with a
paper travelcard.


Really? Interesting. Thanks. As I hardly ever use LU unless I have
to, and definitely haven't needed any kind of Travelcard season (paper
or otherwise) for nearly 20 years, I didn't know that.

I'm surprised they didn't sort out all the problems and get the system
to work properly on LU _before_ extending it to even more lines where
those problems will become more serious.

It's not a problem.

Having to get off the train to touch in and out is perfectly
acceptable.

Now, never again question the benefits of and benevolent intentions
behind Oyster.

I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to
work out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. I think it's because I'm
sceptical towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts which
Oyster is far too heavily mixed up in for my liking.

If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow
against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might even be
abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards,
just like has already happened on LU.

OTOH If someone could produce a sort of point-to-point equivalent of
Oyster, I'd probably welcome it with open arms. (Hmmm... Isn't that
more or less what SWT were trying to do before those *******s at TfL
stopped them and forced them to use Oyster instead?)

"solar penguin" wrote in message
...

I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to work
out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. I think it's because I'm sceptical
towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts which Oyster is
far too heavily mixed up in for my liking.

If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow
against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might even be
abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards, just
like has already happened on LU.


The TOCs already announced, (some time prior to 2008 when all non-seasons
became zonally priced), that all point to point seasons within the zones
would be changed to zonal pricing from Jan 2010.

I don't think anything more has been announced about that recently though.
Seasons could still show origin and destination, but there'd be little point
in not making them valid zonally.

Paul S

Paul Scott wrote:


If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious
blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might
even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for
Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU.


The TOCs already announced, (some time prior to 2008 when all
non-seasons became zonally priced), that all point to point seasons
within the zones would be changed to zonal pricing from Jan 2010.

I don't think anything more has been announced about that recently
though. Seasons could still show origin and destination, but there'd
be little point in not making them valid zonally.

That's depressing news. Thanks for the warning.

Out of curiosity, will these be zonal NR-only season tickets? Or will
there only be Travelcards, forcing us to pay for tube/DLR etc. validity
that we don't need.

On 7 Dec, 19:48, "solar penguin" wrote:
Out of curiosity, will these be zonal NR-only season tickets? Or will
there only be Travelcards, forcing us to pay for tube/DLR etc. validity
that we don't need. *

Neither - It'll be the same as we already have for singles/returns in
the zones - same tickets, same point-to-point validities, but uniform
pricing based on the zones passed through. So a Gipsy Hill-Croydon
season will cost the same Z3-5 rate as a Barnes-Twickenham season.
This will be less than the Travelcard rate, but I can't find 2010
pricing anywhere.

In fact, Southern already use zonal pricing for their seasons, so a
Gipsy Hill - Sutton season costs exactly the same as what the OP has
and I'm fairly certain is valid via both East and West Croydon and, so
there's very little reason for them not to switch to one.

U

solar penguin wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:

The TOCs already announced, (some time prior to 2008 when all
non-seasons became zonally priced), that all point to point seasons
within the zones would be changed to zonal pricing from Jan 2010.

I don't think anything more has been announced about that recently
though. Seasons could still show origin and destination, but there'd
be little point in not making them valid zonally.

That's depressing news. Thanks for the warning.

Out of curiosity, will these be zonal NR-only season tickets? Or will
there only be Travelcards, forcing us to pay for tube/DLR etc.
validity that we don't need.

As I've just posted elsewhere in the thread, the new prices appear to have
been loaded, so it ought to be possible to use the National Rail enquires
season ticket calculator to test what the new prices are, and compare with
your existing season?

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/sts

Paul S

On Dec 7, 9:37*am, "solar penguin"
wrote:
MIG wrote:

That's exactly the situation now when extending a journey on LU with a
paper travelcard.

Really? *Interesting. *Thanks. *As I hardly ever use LU unless I have
to, and definitely haven't needed any kind of Travelcard season (paper
or otherwise) for nearly 20 years, I didn't know that.

I'm surprised they didn't sort out all the problems and get the system
to work properly on LU _before_ extending it to even more lines where
those problems will become more serious.

It's not a problem.

Having to get off the train to touch in and out is perfectly
acceptable.

Now, never again question the benefits of and benevolent intentions
behind Oyster.

I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to
work out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. *I think it's because I'm
sceptical towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts which
Oyster is far too heavily mixed up in for my liking.

If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow
against proper point-to-point seasons. *I'm worried they might even be
abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards,
just like has already happened on LU.

Almost certainly the plan - and for my money it can't come a moment
too soon. The straightforward, convenient LU way of doing it is far
more sensible than the arcane, point-to-point NR way of doing it.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

On Dec 7, 9:37 am, "solar penguin"
wrote:

If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious
blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might
even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for
Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU.

Almost certainly the plan - and for my money it can't come a moment
too soon. The straightforward, convenient LU way of doing it is far
more sensible than the arcane, point-to-point NR way of doing it.

I'm curious. Why do you think zonal fares are "straightforward,
convenient" and "sensible"?

IMHO they're an ungainly compromise between a proper flat-fare system
and a proper route based system, either of which in themselves could be
"straightforward, convenient" and "sensible". But like all such
compromises, the zonal system manages to combine the worst aspects of
both and the best of neither.

Here's a simple example. Go one stop northbound from Kennington on
either of the branches of the Northern line. Common sense says that
these similar journeys ought to cost the same. Instead one costs much
more than the other because it just happens to take you across a random,
imaginary line on a map, while the other doesn't!

Add to that the fact with Travelcards instead of normal seasons, you're
forced into paying extra for availability on other modes of transport,
etc. that 99% of the time you're just not going to be using, and it
becomes even less sensible. (Well, I suppose that might be sensible,
convenient etc. for you, if and only if you routinely travel on many
different modes of transport. But for the rest of us, it just plain
isn't.)

On Dec 7, 8:10*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Add to that the fact with Travelcards instead of normal seasons, you're
forced into paying extra for availability on other modes of transport,
etc. that 99% of the time you're just not going to be using, and it
becomes even less sensible. *(Well, I suppose that might be sensible,
convenient etc. for you, if and only if you routinely travel on many
different modes of transport. *But for the rest of us, it just plain
isn't.)

But who doesn't? I mean, who doesn't go out at weekends or evenings,
who doesn't vary their route to work based on whether there are delays
and if so on what mode, whether it's raining and how tired you are
(for nearer-to-home-but-less-convenient-journey versus longer-walk-
direct-journey versus bus), on whether they're in their normal office
or a site somewhere, on whether they've stayed the night at home or at
a friend's or partner's place, on a million other factors...?

Across London (and this is true even in Tube-less SE London), there
are a huge number of alternative transport modes, be they bus, train
or Tube, that you'll certainly want to use when things go a bit wrong,
which is fairly often, and that you'll often want to use even when
they don't.

If LU sold point-to-point seasons and I'd bought one when I last
renewed, I'd've had to get it refunded twice - once for a move of
house and once for a move of my company's offices, both of which were
forced on me by external factors rather than my whim. And that's even
before any of the circumstances mentioned above.

(as it happens, one possible route to work for me from my current home
to my current work - and the one I'd expected when moving to take most
often - would be covered by a slightly-cheaper-than-Travelcard NR
point-to-point season. If I'd decided to go with that, then I'd be
utterly shafted at the moment thanks to the superb work of FCC and its
drivers. And I'd have to pay a quid every time I went for the bus to
the station instead of a 15-minute walk).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org