On Jan 23, 5:50*pm, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 17:29, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote:
[snip]
From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything
else anyway if travelcards are "protected".

My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could
be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch
during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any
decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise.

Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys,
i.e. those within the zones.

True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG
can't.

I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London
Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return
Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London
Terminals.

Not a great example of whatever you're trying to get at - if you're
making a day trip from Brighton to Coulsdon South you don't sensibly
go via 'London Terminals' (i.e. Victoria or London Bridge), you change
at East Croydon.

Eh? *You'd get a day return including travelcard. The travelcard
validity starts at Coulsdon South. *An extension from the zones (if
you start in London) is similarly from Coulsdon South.

If you actually wanted to go there, you could do it by changing at
Gatwick and Redhill or by doubling back. *I don't know how that
affects the available fares. *If you had an outboundary travelcard or
were extending a season, it wouldn't matter where the trains stopped.

Understood - for some reason I thought you might have started to read
things over from the outboundary situation to the inboundary
situation, but you were in fact referring to the outboundary scenario
and it all makes sense. Though I disagree with the very basis of your
invented bogeyman fears - the person from Brighton is always going to
be able to get an outboundary Travelcard, full stop.

(Unless the Tories come in, give the TOCs total freedom and completely
rip apart the whole basis of inter-available ticketing - which simply
ain't going to happen. Even in a loony hypothetical situation where it
did happen, said TOCs would almost certainly negotiate with TfL for
the existence of some sort of combined day return plus TfL day rover
pass.)


People might feel they were paying multiple times if they had to go
all the way to London Terminals and back without contributing to their
PAYG cap. *If travelcards are retained, there's no problem, and they
may well be, but I am doubting whether the effect on such people will
have any bearing on a decision to retain them. *They'll be told that
they have to get off during both journeys and touch in/out if they
want to take advantage of the Oyster fares.

"They'll be told..." - you're inventing a bogeyman that isn't there -
there hasn't been any serious suggestion that the days of in-boundary
Day Travelcards are numbered. If there ever was such a proposal for
some reason, then the scenario you describe (Day Travelcard plus
Boundary Zone extension fare) would undoubtedly be taken into account
in the decision making process - I'm quite sure that this is a
ticketing combination that's used by a proportionately small but
nonetheless sizeable number of travellers in and around London on a
regular basis.

The discussion was mainly about day return outboundary travelcards,
which it was accepted that they sell lots of. *So my person is the one
who does a day trip from Brighton to London and travels around a lot
in London.

If the travelcards weren't retained, you'd have to go to London
Terminals before you could realistically start running up your PAYG
cap, hence wondering about the difference in day return Brighton to
Coulsdon South and the day return Brighton to London terminals. That
would be the extra bit you'd be paying that wouldn't count towards the
cap.

I am quite prepared to believe that the travelcards will be retained,
but I'm saying that the reasons for retaining them will be down to
legislation, not down to consideration of the people in Sussex who
either don't have Oyster cards or wouldn't get the chance to touch in.

Nonsense - ignore the legislation, and tell me in whose interest it
would be to do away with outboundary Day Travelcards? The TOCs sell
bucket loads of them.

You can voice fears about a hypothetical future withdrawal of
inboundary Travelcards and I will take you seriously... but to
question the continued existence of outboundary Travelcards is a bit
loopy. Sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but I'm in a rush and haven't
got the time to rephrase it in a nicer, less harsh way!

On 23 Jan, 18:19, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 5:50*pm, MIG wrote:





On 23 Jan, 17:29, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote:
[snip]
From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything
else anyway if travelcards are "protected".

My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could
be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch
during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any
decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise.

Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys,
i.e. those within the zones.

True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG
can't.

I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London
Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return
Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London
Terminals.

Not a great example of whatever you're trying to get at - if you're
making a day trip from Brighton to Coulsdon South you don't sensibly
go via 'London Terminals' (i.e. Victoria or London Bridge), you change
at East Croydon.

Eh? *You'd get a day return including travelcard. The travelcard
validity starts at Coulsdon South. *An extension from the zones (if
you start in London) is similarly from Coulsdon South.

If you actually wanted to go there, you could do it by changing at
Gatwick and Redhill or by doubling back. *I don't know how that
affects the available fares. *If you had an outboundary travelcard or
were extending a season, it wouldn't matter where the trains stopped.

Understood - for some reason I thought you might have started to read
things over from the outboundary situation to the inboundary
situation, but you were in fact referring to the outboundary scenario
and it all makes sense. Though I disagree with the very basis of your
invented bogeyman fears - the person from Brighton is always going to
be able to get an outboundary Travelcard, full stop.

(Unless the Tories come in, give the TOCs total freedom and completely
rip apart the whole basis of inter-available ticketing - which simply
ain't going to happen. Even in a loony hypothetical situation where it
did happen, said TOCs would almost certainly negotiate with TfL for
the existence of some sort of combined day return plus TfL day rover
pass.)







People might feel they were paying multiple times if they had to go
all the way to London Terminals and back without contributing to their
PAYG cap. *If travelcards are retained, there's no problem, and they
may well be, but I am doubting whether the effect on such people will
have any bearing on a decision to retain them. *They'll be told that
they have to get off during both journeys and touch in/out if they
want to take advantage of the Oyster fares.

"They'll be told..." - you're inventing a bogeyman that isn't there -
there hasn't been any serious suggestion that the days of in-boundary
Day Travelcards are numbered. If there ever was such a proposal for
some reason, then the scenario you describe (Day Travelcard plus
Boundary Zone extension fare) would undoubtedly be taken into account
in the decision making process - I'm quite sure that this is a
ticketing combination that's used by a proportionately small but
nonetheless sizeable number of travellers in and around London on a
regular basis.

The discussion was mainly about day return outboundary travelcards,
which it was accepted that they sell lots of. *So my person is the one
who does a day trip from Brighton to London and travels around a lot
in London.

If the travelcards weren't retained, you'd have to go to London
Terminals before you could realistically start running up your PAYG
cap, hence wondering about the difference in day return Brighton to
Coulsdon South and the day return Brighton to London terminals. That
would be the extra bit you'd be paying that wouldn't count towards the
cap.

I am quite prepared to believe that the travelcards will be retained,
but I'm saying that the reasons for retaining them will be down to
legislation, not down to consideration of the people in Sussex who
either don't have Oyster cards or wouldn't get the chance to touch in.

Nonsense - ignore the legislation, and tell me in whose interest it
would be to do away with outboundary Day Travelcards? The TOCs sell
bucket loads of them.

You can voice fears about a hypothetical future withdrawal of
inboundary Travelcards and I will take you seriously... but to
question the continued existence of outboundary Travelcards is a bit
loopy. Sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but I'm in a rush and haven't
got the time to rephrase it in a nicer, less harsh way!

I don't think that through all of the discussion I've actually made a
prediction about whether or not outboundary day travelcards will be
withdrawn, so I don't take offence, not having suggested the thing
that you find loopy.

The point I keep making is that the reasons for retaining them will be

a) legislation and (I've added at least once)

b) business considerations (the bucket loads you mention), as long as
the relevant parties who currently make the money are in a position to
make the decision

I am arguing against the statements made by a couple of contributors
on the lines of "some people won't have Oyster" and "people won't have
the chance to touch in" as the reasons why the travelcards will be
retained.

The convenience of those punters will NOT be a consideration. The
result may be the same.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Jan 23, 2:20*pm, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist -
the TOCs sell a ton of them.

At extraordinarily widely varying prices. I've been having a
(non-)correspondence with FCC. I asked them to explain why, when a
Cambridge to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return is £20 (or £13.20
with railcard) and the Oxford to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return
is also £20 (or £13.20 with railcard), the Cambridge Day Travelcard
is £26.50 (£17.50 with railcard, a £4.30 addon) while the Oxford one
is only £2 (with railcard discount) more than the London Terminals
fare.

All I got back from First was this waffle:

"I have passed your thoughts to our fares Manager, who has replied
saying that the Travelcard fare within the Travelcard Area (Zones
1-6) are set by Transport for London in conjunction with all the Train
Operators that operate services within the Travelcard Area."

Obviously ********.

What the letter failed to go on and say was that 'out-boundary
Travelcard fares are set by TOCs on the basis of a commercial decision
as to how much they can get away with charging (versus their desire to
attract traffic)'. Of course there will be a certain amount of money
from each out-boundary Travelcard that has to go into the Travelcard
pot, for sharing out, but that only accounts for some of it.

Re your examples - FGW probably price the Oxford fares in the context
of the competing coach services to London, a factor that doesn't exist
at Cambridge (NXEA arguably provide a bit of 'competition', but most
pax go the fast way via KX and FCC).

As opposed to the very slow way via the Oxford Tube? 100 minutes outside
rush hours makes West Anglia look quick!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

I wrote on the 17th January:

I've only recently started using Oyster PAYG on a semi-regular basis. I
topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket
office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries:

(1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would
that be?

(2) I noticed that the machine showed that the Oyster card was loaded with
a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered
me the option of renewing it. I have never had any Travelcard loaded on
the Oyster card, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. I
did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that
this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the
short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I
can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? I think that at that time
only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL
load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oyster cards?

Later in that thread, I promised to post details of any replies I got to my
queries. Sorry it's taken a long time; I've been waiting in vain for a
reply by TfL to my email, but I needed to phone the helpline anyway today,
so I repeated my questions. None of the replies has turned out to be very
illuminating, but at least my call was answered very quickly...

Answer to qn 1 above: The Top-up location just appears as a reference number
on the system the helpline operative was using. He agreed that "Bus" was
incorrect. (Presumably someone has failed to link the reference number for
the FCC machine at St. Pancras to its actual location, so it defaults to
"Bus", but why?)

Answer to qn 2 above: "It shouldn't happen". "Just ignore it".

Qn 3: Why is nothing ever shown in the "Price cap" column in the online
journey history? Answer: just ignore it.

Qn 4 (the actual reason for my call): My online 'card overview' shows a
PAYG balance of £5.71, but in the online 'journey history', no transactions
are showing after 10th February, at which time the balance was £11.21. Why
aren't my more recent journeys showing? Answer: Would you like an email
showing your recent (March) journeys (details of which he read out to me)?
Yes, I said. As a supplementary question, I asked whether these journeys
would eventually appear online, but I didn't get a particularly clear
answer.

Living 140 miles away, I don't use Oyster all that often, but I'm still a
'supporter'. However, this list of queries and the responses lead me to
believe that things are still somewhat shambolic. Is that a fair
assessment?