On Jan 22, 10:12*pm, David Jackman replytogroup wrote:

"John Salmon" wrote:

Arising out of this, I would caution railway enthusiasts using Oyster
PAYG whilst staying on the system ...

If you are doing anything remotely "odd" the advice would always be to get
a paper Travelcard. *It's now the same price as a capped Oystercard and
avoids so many problems

I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to
worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day
Travelcard or not is great.

However I would agree that if people are planning on doing 'odd'
things, such as standing around on a station for a long time, or going
for a ride there and back without exiting the system at the far end,
or backtracking on oneself, or other variants thereof - in other words
things that rail enthusiasts are perhaps wont to do - then a paper Day
Travelcard would be wise, as it sidesteps any potential issues. Oyster
is designed for people making A to B journeys, i.e. getting from one
place to another, which is what the (public) transport system is
designed for too, after all!

"Mizter T" wrote

David Jackman wrote:

"John Salmon" wrote:

Arising out of this, I would caution railway enthusiasts using Oyster
PAYG whilst staying on the system ...

If you are doing anything remotely "odd" the advice would always be to
get a paper Travelcard. It's now the same price as a capped Oystercard
and avoids so many problems

I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry
about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not
is great. However I would agree that if people are planning on doing
'odd' things, such as standing around on a station for a long time, or
going for a ride there and back without exiting the system at the far end,
or backtracking on oneself, or other variants thereof - in other words
things that rail enthusiasts are perhaps wont to do - then a paper Day
Travelcard would be wise, as it sidesteps any potential issues. Oyster is
designed for people making A to B journeys, i.e. getting from one place to
another, which is what the (public) transport system is designed for too,
after all!

Yes, I'm still an Oyster supporter but I agree with both of you, and
following my recent experiences I shall be careful about my choice each time
I visit London.

"Mizter T" wrote

I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to
worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day
Travelcard or not is great.

Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.

Peter

On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote



I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to
worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day
Travelcard or not is great.

Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.

It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration,
but they haven't till now. If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be
down to legislation, not consideration of the punters.

On Jan 23, 10:25*am, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to
worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day
Travelcard or not is great.

Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.

It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration,
but they haven't till now. *If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be
down to legislation, not consideration of the punters.

???

The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the
TOCs sell a ton of them.

On Jan 23, 9:34*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote



I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to
worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day
Travelcard or not is great.

Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.


Both types of One Day Travelcards are protected and not everyone will
have an Oystercard. From the ToCs point of view, it would be silly to
remove them, as there is always the chance of people not using the
full 'value', especially with the peak tickets.

On Jan 23, 9:34*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:
I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to
worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day
Travelcard or not is great.

Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.

Valid question, one that I've pondered on before. There is some
precedence, as the paper one-day Bus Pass was withdrawn by TfL in
January (this was available to buy from all the participating
newsagents, plus roadside ticket machines where they exist and also
from Tube station ticket offices and machines). However I'm really not
so sure the same would happen w.r.t. the Day Travelcard, and certainly
not any time soon. Two impediments immediately spring to mind - (1)
it's still the case that not many TOC-run ticket offices can deal with
Oyster at all, and (2) the existence of the Day Travelcard is
protected by statute.

In addition I can't see the TOCs pushing for the in-boundary Day
Travelcard to go 'all Oyster' (at least not yet), the thinking being
what do they have to gain? Plus Oyster can't replace one functional
element of conventional paper Day Travelcards in at least one regard -
you can't get a boundary zone extensions to cover journeys beyond the
zones with Oyster PAYG + capping, as you'd need to touch out (and then
back in on the return).

Lastly, a point I've made before - if there wasn't a simple easy to
buy day pass available for use on public transport across London then
there'd be the need to invent one. Perhaps this applies more to the
Underground (i.e. a day pass for LU), but since we have the Day
Travelcard then that more than fulfils the above function, so it might
as well stay.

I can however imagine that in future years a capped Oyster card might
be marginally cheaper than a Day Travelcard - indeed until January
this year the quasi-equivalent caps were 50p cheaper than a Day
Travelcard - but that would just be a way of attracting people to use
it more, and would of course have to be agreed upon with the TOCs now.

On 23 Jan, 12:14, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 10:25*am, MIG wrote:





On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly
value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to
worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day
Travelcard or not is great.

Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.

It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration,
but they haven't till now. *If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be
down to legislation, not consideration of the punters.

???

The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the
TOCs sell a ton of them.

OK; legislation or business benefits (assuming that it would be down
to the TOCs to decide that travelcards continued; but would it, given
validity on LU, buses etc?).

From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything
else anyway if travelcards are "protected".

My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could
be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch
during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any
decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise.

On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 12:14, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 10:25*am, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote:
[snip]
Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.

It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration,
but they haven't till now. *If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be
down to legislation, not consideration of the punters.

???

The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the
TOCs sell a ton of them.

OK; legislation or business benefits (assuming that it would be down
to the TOCs to decide that travelcards continued; but would it, given
validity on LU, buses etc?).

The Travelcard, as well as being protected, is a joint National Rail
and TfL product. TfL could not just do away with it unilaterally.


From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything
else anyway if travelcards are "protected".

My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could
be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch
during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any
decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise.

Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys,
i.e. those within the zones.

On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote:





On 23 Jan, 12:14, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 23, 10:25*am, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote:
[snip]
Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available
on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably
have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on
a train entering the zones.

It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration,
but they haven't till now. *If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be
down to legislation, not consideration of the punters.

???

The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the
TOCs sell a ton of them.

OK; legislation or business benefits (assuming that it would be down
to the TOCs to decide that travelcards continued; but would it, given
validity on LU, buses etc?).

The Travelcard, as well as being protected, is a joint National Rail
and TfL product. TfL could not just do away with it unilaterally.



From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything
else anyway if travelcards are "protected".

My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could
be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch
during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any
decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise.

Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys,
i.e. those within the zones.

True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG
can't.

I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London
Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return
Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London
Terminals.

People might feel they were paying multiple times if they had to go
all the way to London Terminals and back without contributing to their
PAYG cap. If travelcards are retained, there's no problem, and they
may well be, but I am doubting whether the effect on such people will
have any bearing on a decision to retain them. They'll be told that
they have to get off during both journeys and touch in/out if they
want to take advantage of the Oyster fares.