On Jan 22, 1:51*pm, MIG wrote:

On 22 Jan, 12:29, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 22, 11:08*am, MIG wrote:
[snip]
It does sound good (although not mentioning connections south) but I
suspect that it is sufficiently out of date not to be worth paying too
much attention to. *A lot has happened in "a couple of years", not
least the election of a new Mayor, a major recession and some dodgy
deals*. *I don't simply take the word of the local campaigners either,
who mention the reduction in service to LB (and Charing Cross) and
lack of connections south, but don't mention the ELL, but I recognise
that they have some justification for cynicism.

I guess we'll know soon enough when the timetable comes out.

*To get the go-ahead for things that may yet not go ahead (and Virgin
not involved ...).

I agree that things may well have changed - plus as we've seen the RUS
is not a hallowed document, it's a recommendation, and it strongly
recommended that there be a replacement for the SLL (the proposed Vic-
Bellingham service) which seemingly isn't now going to happen.

With regards to your "dodgy deals" comment, I assume this is in
relation to the cutting of the SLL, right? Well, one justification was
the extension of the other platforms at Battersea Park - whether that
happens any time soon is a fair enough question. However at the other
end of the line, the redevelopment at London Bridge is indeed going
ahead, as it's all linked in with building the 'Shard' tower right
next to the station, which is itself intermeshed with the Thameslink
Programme works. Of course, one could make an argument about about it
being a "dodgy deal" for this to happen in the first place, what with
the associated reduction of terminating platforms at LB from 9 down to
6[*].

The ELL phase 2 to Clapham Jn seems fairly certain to happen (no doubt
it's controversial because of the associated SLL stuff, but I can't
see the plug being pulled on it now).

So are your comments predominantly about Battersea Park and the
disappearing SLL service? Or a wider comment, perhaps including
reference to Crossrail and other stuff?

Well, mainly about the loss of SLL, and then the loss of the
replacement service from Victoria.

I was thinking that the loss of the service will definitely happen,
but that the service that replaces it may yet not, although you are
more confident that it will happen.

No, that's not what I meant, but on re-reading them perhaps my
comments weren't very clear.

What I was trying to say was that I didn't see any chance of the plug
being pulled on ELL phase 2.

However, in the (I think very) unlikely event that was to happen, then
there would *have* to be some sort of SLL replacement service (for
example a Vic-Bellingham service) - apart from anything else, Clapham
High Street and Wandsworth Road would otherwise be left without any
service

I don't know what the latest is re the fate of the proposed then
rejected Vic-Bellingham service - afraid I wasn't following things at
all much recently, so I'm not up to date with the latest developments
on this front. I do however know that there is very considerable local
opposition to the loss of the SLL on parts of the route. I wouldn't
say I'm confident that the proposed Vic-Bellingham service will be
resurrected - in fact I wouldn't say anything because I just don't
know what's going on now.


(My Virgin comment was thinking back to how other services were cut to
make way for PUG and Operation Princess, and remain cut, without the
promised benefit.)

OK.


I seem to remember there was a deal around the zoning of Shoreditch as
well, but that's more of an aside that explains people's cynicism.

The re-zoning of Shoreditch seemed to be part of the overall deal that
the Mayor did with the DfT - or should I say the deal they did with
each other - this was the very same deal that involved the Mayor/TfL
opting to redirect the funding for the proposed Vic-Bellinham service
(a quasi-replacement for the doomed SLL service) into TfL's coffers so
as to help pay for ELL phase 2.

As I understand it, part of the deal was the DfT listening to TOCs
concerns about the possibility for revenue abstraction with SHS being
in zone 2 (i.e. pax transferring to the ELL to get to SHS instead of
travelling to London Bridge and the TOCs losing the fares money), and
then making the funding contingent on TfL agreeing to re-zone SHS into
zone 1 to mitigate against any such possible revenue abstraction.

So it's all bound together somehow - the Shard skyscraper, Thameslink
2K, the ELL, plans for platform lengthening on routes out of Victoria
etc etc etc.

On 22 Jan, 15:57, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 22, 1:51*pm, MIG wrote:





On 22 Jan, 12:29, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 22, 11:08*am, MIG wrote:
[snip]
It does sound good (although not mentioning connections south) but I
suspect that it is sufficiently out of date not to be worth paying too
much attention to. *A lot has happened in "a couple of years", not
least the election of a new Mayor, a major recession and some dodgy
deals*. *I don't simply take the word of the local campaigners either,
who mention the reduction in service to LB (and Charing Cross) and
lack of connections south, but don't mention the ELL, but I recognise
that they have some justification for cynicism.

I guess we'll know soon enough when the timetable comes out.

*To get the go-ahead for things that may yet not go ahead (and Virgin
not involved ...).

I agree that things may well have changed - plus as we've seen the RUS
is not a hallowed document, it's a recommendation, and it strongly
recommended that there be a replacement for the SLL (the proposed Vic-
Bellingham service) which seemingly isn't now going to happen.

With regards to your "dodgy deals" comment, I assume this is in
relation to the cutting of the SLL, right? Well, one justification was
the extension of the other platforms at Battersea Park - whether that
happens any time soon is a fair enough question. However at the other
end of the line, the redevelopment at London Bridge is indeed going
ahead, as it's all linked in with building the 'Shard' tower right
next to the station, which is itself intermeshed with the Thameslink
Programme works. Of course, one could make an argument about about it
being a "dodgy deal" for this to happen in the first place, what with
the associated reduction of terminating platforms at LB from 9 down to
6[*].

The ELL phase 2 to Clapham Jn seems fairly certain to happen (no doubt
it's controversial because of the associated SLL stuff, but I can't
see the plug being pulled on it now).

So are your comments predominantly about Battersea Park and the
disappearing SLL service? Or a wider comment, perhaps including
reference to Crossrail and other stuff?

Well, mainly about the loss of SLL, and then the loss of the
replacement service from Victoria.

I was thinking that the loss of the service will definitely happen,
but that the service that replaces it may yet not, although you are
more confident that it will happen.

No, that's not what I meant, but on re-reading them perhaps my
comments weren't very clear.

What I was trying to say was that I didn't see any chance of the plug
being pulled on ELL phase 2.

However, in the (I think very) unlikely event that was to happen, then
there would *have* to be some sort of SLL replacement service (for
example a Vic-Bellingham service) - apart from anything else, Clapham
High Street and Wandsworth Road would otherwise be left without any
service

I don't know what the latest is re the fate of the proposed then
rejected Vic-Bellingham service - afraid I wasn't following things at
all much recently, so I'm not up to date with the latest developments
on this front. I do however know that there is very considerable local
opposition to the loss of the SLL on parts of the route. I wouldn't
say I'm confident that the proposed Vic-Bellingham service will be
resurrected - in fact I wouldn't say anything because I just don't
know what's going on now.

I haven't a clue, but I wonder if at some point the Catford line
service will just run from Victoria, as it does on Sundays, during
future Thameslink works, and everyone will get used to it.




(My Virgin comment was thinking back to how other services were cut to
make way for PUG and Operation Princess, and remain cut, without the
promised benefit.)

OK.



I seem to remember there was a deal around the zoning of Shoreditch as
well, but that's more of an aside that explains people's cynicism.

The re-zoning of Shoreditch seemed to be part of the overall deal that
the Mayor did with the DfT - or should I say the deal they did with
each other - this was the very same deal that involved the Mayor/TfL
opting to redirect the funding for the proposed Vic-Bellinham service
(a quasi-replacement for the doomed SLL service) into TfL's coffers so
as to help pay for ELL phase 2.

There's something double-thoughtful about that. Can't quite get my
head round it.

A service that was only ever proposed as a result of planned changes
was cancelled to pay for the changes that led to it being
proposed ...

Anyway, a lot is going to depend on what happens to the Victoria to
Dartford services, which could do with running later (as they once
did) and on Sundays (as they did as far as Charlton when the Dome was
open), what tracks they use etc.


As I understand it, part of the deal was the DfT listening to TOCs
concerns about the possibility for revenue abstraction with SHS being
in zone 2 (i.e. pax transferring to the ELL to get to SHS instead of
travelling to London Bridge and the TOCs losing the fares money), and
then making the funding contingent on TfL agreeing to re-zone SHS into
zone 1 to mitigate against any such possible revenue abstraction.

So it's all bound together somehow - the Shard skyscraper, Thameslink
2K, the ELL, plans for platform lengthening on routes out of Victoria
etc etc etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"DW downunder" noname wrote in message
...


Given FCC's track record, I suspect it's more a case of: we'll know when
we see the trains actually running ... and for your further flung
participants: ... and the news filters through. SIGH

Thankfully, it is nothing at all to do with FCC...

Paul S

That said, for anyone working in the vicinity of the Old Street
roundabout, then a walk over from Hoxton is rather more doable. So
there's a possibility of the ELL taking a few pax away from FCC's Great
Northern Electrics / Northern City line service into Moorgate via Old
Street, dependent on where they're heading of course (and also where
they're starting from - if it's Highbury & Islington that's one thing,
but if people are coming from further out say on the Great Northern
Electrics service then faffing about changing at H&I becomes less
attractive, esp. if the walk is the same or longer at the other end!).

If you live anywhere on the H&I-Dalston-Hoxton route, and you work in
Old St, you're going to get the bus, without any question, surely? It's
always going to be quicker/cheaper?

(and in fact, if it's not raining, surely 90% of people would walk from
any of those places, making a much larger saving!)

"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

There is currently one up morning peak long distance train to Victoria which
calls at Denmark Hill en route, and before the December timetable change
there were three, so stops by fast trains here and/or at Peckham Rye are not
out of the question. Indeed, during the period in the 1980s when the SLL
service was peak hours only, and hourly off-peak Victoria - Maidstone East
train called at Denmark Hill (and later, at Peckham Rye as well).

Peter

On Jan 22, 6:04*pm, Martin Petrov
wrote:

That said, for anyone working in the vicinity of the Old Street
roundabout, then a walk over from Hoxton is rather more doable. So
there's a possibility of the ELL taking a few pax away from FCC's Great
Northern Electrics / Northern City line service into Moorgate via Old
Street, dependent on where they're heading of course (and also where
they're starting from - if it's Highbury & Islington that's one thing,
but if people are coming from further out say on the Great Northern
Electrics service then faffing about changing at H&I becomes less
attractive, esp. if the walk is the same or longer at the other end!).

If you live anywhere on the H&I-Dalston-Hoxton route, and you work in
Old St, you're going to get the bus, without any question, surely? It's
always going to be quicker/cheaper?

(and in fact, if it's not raining, surely 90% of people would walk from
any of those places, making a much larger saving!)

Yes, quite possibly - to the bus bit at least. Don't think you'd find
90% of people walking though (unfortunately).

walkit.com has Highbury Corner (i.e. H&I) to Old Street roundabout as
being 1.7 miles, so a 25 mins fast pace/ 34 mins medium pace, whilst
Dalston Junction (well, Dalston Kingsland station actually) to Old
Street is 1.8 miles, so basically the same timings. (I think I'm at
their fast pace, except on a v hot day or perhaps when, er, rather
merry!)

From Highbury Corner/ H&I there's the 271 bus to Old Street the direct
way via Canonbury Road, or the more indirect (but poss almost as fast)
43 bus via the Angel then City Road. The Great Northern/ Northern City
line service also doesn't have a Tube-like frequency, and isn't that
fast - if it was like the Victoria line then it'd get more custom for
short hops like this.

There are four frequent bus routes down the Kingsland Road, though I
think it can perhaps be a bit slow going at peak times as both the
buses and the road are busy (though yes a lot of it does have a bus
lane(s)).

Perhaps if one was heading from Dalston more towards the Liverpool
Street side of the City instead of around Old Street then jumping on a
frequent train from Dalston Junction and being able to shoot down past
it all high up on a viaduct to SHS station might well have its
attractions - but of course it would also have it's zone 1 expense,
which is where we came in!

And then there's a bike as well, of course!

On Jan 22, 7:23*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 05:46:10 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Jan 22, 4:33*am, "DW downunder" noname wrote:
And may I ask, for those who walked from LB, what would be the pricing and
access issues if they were to use Whitechapel instead?

Whitechapel is and will remain in zone 2, but it's that bit further
away from the City - it will certainly be an option for anyone who
works on that edge of the City (say around Aldgate) and is willing to
walk a bit, but the lay of the land makes it that bit less attractive
to do so - SHS is closer to where it's going on (in City office terms
- Whitechapel market seems to be where it's at for dodgy DVD street
sales...).

So, from points south Whitechapel + walk is a possible option for
avoiding zone 1. The old Shoreditch ELL station (in zone 2) was also
used by a cadre of City commuters - indeed it only had a peak hours
service (though the service window was quite wide), but as we now know
the quasi-replacement SHS station will be in zone 1.

Or jump on a bus into the city - 25 and 205 from Whitechapel or the 100
from Shadwell. *A Z23 Travelcard is valid on all TfL buses across London
as there are no zones. Clearly it depends on how time sensitive people
are but it is possible to avoid the Zone 1 premium if you're prepared to
change.

Indeed - I omitted to mention the bus!

(Though doesn't the Zone 1 premium help to fund your meal ticket? )

On Jan 22, 8:57*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)
* walk to Battersea Park and get a train (though the walk isn't all
that direct as there's all this railway land in the middle! Plus
they're not not the most appealing of streets to walk down.)

Not ideal in any case though. If a portion of the Up low level line
through Stewart's Lane could be made reversible where it joins the
Chatham Slow, might that work? (I dare say that something like that is
far far easier said than done!)


There is currently one up morning peak long distance train to Victoria which
calls at Denmark Hill en route, and before the December timetable change
there were three, so stops by fast trains here and/or at Peckham Rye are not
out of the question. Indeed, during the period in the 1980s when the SLL
service was peak hours only, and hourly off-peak Victoria - Maidstone East
train called at Denmark Hill (and later, at Peckham Rye as well).

I think that it's around there (Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye) where a
lot of the opposition and campaigning has been been brewing (though
I'm a bit out of the loop on the latest) - so putting in some extra
stops might address matters somewhat. Though at Denmark Hill I think
the loss of a through service to London Bridge is quite a big part of
it (the almost adjacent King's College Hospital is part of the same
Trust as Guy's Hospital next to London Bridge, and I think this
arrangement manages to generate a certain degree of inter-hospital
traffic of staff, patients and students, and so this is where some of
the noise is coming from).

In article
,
Mizter T wrote:

Perhaps if one was heading from Dalston more towards the Liverpool
Street side of the City instead of around Old Street then jumping on a
frequent train from Dalston Junction and being able to shoot down past
it all high up on a viaduct to SHS station might well have its
attractions - but of course it would also have it's zone 1 expense,
which is where we came in!

We live on the 76 route, which goes through Dalston and gets you to Old
Street and Moorgate (and a short cut through to Liverpool Street) and
Bank. It's usually pretty fast and a short walk away are the 141 and 21,
likewise, and since the 21 started coming up this way then the bus
overcrowding has got better.

The Kingsland Road buses are also a short walk away - Kingsland Road is
surprisingly traffic free south of Dalston until you get to the
Shoreditch system.

E.

"Mizter T" wrote

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)
* walk to Battersea Park and get a train (though the walk isn't all
that direct as there's all this railway land in the middle! Plus
they're not not the most appealing of streets to walk down.)
Not ideal in any case though. If a portion of the Up low level line
through Stewart's Lane could be made reversible where it joins the
Chatham Slow, might that work? (I dare say that something like that is
far far easier said than done!)

I think that it's around there (Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye) where a
lot of the opposition and campaigning has been been brewing (though
I'm a bit out of the loop on the latest) - so putting in some extra
stops might address matters somewhat. Though at Denmark Hill I think
the loss of a through service to London Bridge is quite a big part of
it (the almost adjacent King's College Hospital is part of the same
Trust as Guy's Hospital next to London Bridge, and I think this
arrangement manages to generate a certain degree of inter-hospital
traffic of staff, patients and students, and so this is where some of
the noise is coming from).

The junction between Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road is Voltaire
Road Junction.

IMHO making the up low level line reversible is a non-starter - from Clapham
High Street the Chatham side has effectively produced a 4-track approach to
Victoria, using the low level route as the up slow, and the reversible slow
between Battersea Pier Junction and Voltaire Road as effectively the down
slow. So without significant track and signalling work I don't think serving
Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains is practicable. And I don't think it's
worth keeping Clapham High Street to Victoria trains. Apart from
claustrophobics who want a surface journey at the expense of frequency,
anyone making this journey will do better by LUL from Clapham North via
Stockwell.

The reduction from 4tph to 2tph between Victoria, Denmark Hill, and Peckham
Rye might seem a retrograde step, but in practice the SLL and Dartford
trains mostly run very close to each other, followed by a near 30 minute gap
to the next pair. Ideally this is a flow that should be provided with the
(ex-) Mayor of London's aim for at least a 15 minute clockface service on NR
lines in London, though rather than a new service to Bellingham I'd rather
see the Dartford via Bexleyheath service augmented with a Victoria to Sidcup
service (which can avoid some of the worst conflicts on the flat crossing at
Lewisham, especially if Cannon Street to Sidcup trains are run via Parks
Bridge direct, as they wouldn't need to serve Lewisham).

While the loss of through trains between Denmark Hill and London Bridge is
regrettable, passengers making this journey will be able to do it with a
same-platform change (at Peckham Rye or Queens Road Peckham) and will have a
new possibility of travelling to Blackfriars and using the new South Bank
entrance.

Peter