On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 04:35:23 -0800, ticketyboo wrote:


Nope - 100% smart card. There are vending machines that take the
'single trip' cards back and refund the card deposit.

I wonder what proportion of those cards are surrendered.

Overall, Singapore is a small and disciplined country (really a city
state)...

The locals all have Ezlink cards, the single use refundable cards are
really intended for visitors. I would image a significant portion get
souvenired or just tossed out when the traveller gets home and finds it
still in one of their pockets.

Ezlink did once publish a study on the usage of their cards, which noted
that a larger than expected number of cards had been issued that simply
disappeared from the system. This was a source of concern as in the early
days they were subsidising the cost of the cards. Two of those missing
cards would have been those held by my wife and I. Only those reappear in
the system every 12 months or so as we transit their city. :-)

On Feb 2, 7:51*pm, Matthew Geier
wrote:

*Ezlink did once publish a study on the usage of their cards, which noted
that a larger than expected number of cards had been issued that simply
disappeared from the system. This was a source of concern as in the early
days they were subsidising the cost of the cards. Two of those missing
cards would have been those held by my wife and I. Only those reappear in
the system every 12 months or so as we transit their city. :-)

Exactly what happens with Oyster: very many rarely used (including
mine) or never again used cards [1]. But, given the very large gap
between Oyster fares and cash fares, the incentive is there to get an
Oyster card when making only one visit to London. There really ought
to be an expiry date on these type of cards in a metropolitan area -
perhaps 3 years. Maybe make them renewable until such time as the
scheme operator needs to replace them, but renewed only by an explicit
action by the card holder.

[1] Actually I have 2, the first one being a very early PAYG that the
web site refused to register even though it was still working in
practice (i.e. I could top it up at the self service machines) but I
do not use it now. A TfL office merely gave me a new one without
cancelling the old one.

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 23:27:26 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
ticketyboo wrote this:-

Exactly what happens with Oyster: very many rarely used (including
mine) or never again used cards [1]. But, given the very large gap
between Oyster fares and cash fares, the incentive is there to get an
Oyster card when making only one visit to London. There really ought
to be an expiry date on these type of cards in a metropolitan area -
perhaps 3 years.

Why?

As I understand it the £3.00 fine for getting one covers the cost of
the card and provides a buffer against abuse.

Operators tend to have offers for regular passengers,which
discourages irregular travellers. A card which can be used
occasionally and transferred to other people encourages irregular
passengers to use the service, which sounds good to me.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

In message
David Hansen wrote:

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 23:27:26 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
ticketyboo wrote this:-

Exactly what happens with Oyster: very many rarely used (including
mine) or never again used cards [1]. But, given the very large gap
between Oyster fares and cash fares, the incentive is there to get an
Oyster card when making only one visit to London. There really ought
to be an expiry date on these type of cards in a metropolitan area -
perhaps 3 years.

Why?

As I understand it the £3.00 fine for getting one covers the cost of
the card and provides a buffer against abuse.

Why this stupid insistence on using emotive words like 'fine' to describe a
simple deposit? It just devalues any point you might have.

By the way, have you returned the 90p you stole from Boris yet?


--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail
Photo galleries at http://graeme-wall.fotopic.net/

On Feb 3, 8:51*am, Graeme wrote:

In message
* * * * * David Hansen wrote:

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 23:27:26 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
ticketyboo wrote this:-

Exactly what happens with Oyster: very many rarely used (including
mine) or never again used cards [1]. But, given the very large gap
between Oyster fares and cash fares, the incentive is there to get an
Oyster card when making only one visit to London. There really ought
to be an expiry date on these type of cards in a metropolitan area -
perhaps 3 years.

Why?

As I understand it the £3.00 fine for getting one covers the cost of
the card and provides a buffer against abuse.

Why this stupid insistence on using emotive words like 'fine' to describe a
simple deposit? *It just devalues any point you might have.

Agreed - it's a feature of David Hansen's writing style that makes
reading his posts rather trying and hectoring.

The cards cost money to produce. The £3 deposit/ charge for them
encourages people to reuse them, rather than bin them.

On 3 Feb, 09:44, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:51*am, Graeme wrote:





In message
* * * * * David Hansen wrote:

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 23:27:26 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
ticketyboo wrote this:-

Exactly what happens with Oyster: very many rarely used (including
mine) or never again used cards [1]. But, given the very large gap
between Oyster fares and cash fares, the incentive is there to get an
Oyster card when making only one visit to London. There really ought
to be an expiry date on these type of cards in a metropolitan area -
perhaps 3 years.

Why?

As I understand it the £3.00 fine for getting one covers the cost of
the card and provides a buffer against abuse.

Why this stupid insistence on using emotive words like 'fine' to describe a
simple deposit? *It just devalues any point you might have.

Agreed - it's a feature of David Hansen's writing style that makes
reading his posts rather trying and hectoring.

The cards cost money to produce. The £3 deposit/ charge for them
encourages people to reuse them, rather than bin them.

"Fine" may be the wrong word, but "deposit" is at least as wrong.
"Price" would seem to cover it. There is almost no realistic
opportunity to get the £3 back for the vast majority, and I don't
suppose it's the first thing on relatives' minds when someone dies.

If it's a fine, it's a fine for losing the card. I had one, lost it,
had to buy another one. I don't expect to get the £3 back, but I may
pay another £3 when I lose this one ...

It's a bit annoying to know that if you did surrender one, it would be
binned anyway. I once found someone's registered Oyster and handed it
in, only for it to dawn on me that it was probably going to be binned
without the person who registered it being informed (at least not
before they bought another one).

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 02:22:11 -0800 (PST) someone who may be MIG
wrote this:-

If it's a fine, it's a fine for losing the card. I had one, lost it,
had to buy another one. I don't expect to get the £3 back, but I may
pay another £3 when I lose this one ...

"A refund is not payable of any deposit paid for the lost/stolen
Oyster card."

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage.pdf
page 39.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Feb 3, 10:22*am, MIG wrote:

On 3 Feb, 09:44, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 3, 8:51*am, Graeme wrote:

David Hansen wrote:
[snip]
As I understand it the £3.00 fine for getting one covers the cost of
the card and provides a buffer against abuse.

Why this stupid insistence on using emotive words like 'fine' to describe a
simple deposit? *It just devalues any point you might have.

Agreed - it's a feature of David Hansen's writing style that makes
reading his posts rather trying and hectoring.

The cards cost money to produce. The £3 deposit/ charge for them
encourages people to reuse them, rather than bin them.

"Fine" may be the wrong word, but "deposit" is at least as wrong.
"Price" would seem to cover it. *There is almost no realistic
opportunity to get the £3 back for the vast majority, and I don't
suppose it's the first thing on relatives' minds when someone dies.

"There is almost no realistic opportunity to get the £3 back for the
vast majority" - not true. If it's never been topped up with a credit
card, and the balance is under a certain amount (sorry I forget the
figure), then one can surrender it at a Tube station and get the
deposit refunded (if the card's registered then AIUI this is still
possible, you just need to know the security phrase).


If it's a fine, it's a fine for losing the card. *I had one, lost it,
had to buy another one. *I don't expect to get the £3 back, but I may
pay another £3 when I lose this one ...

It's a bit annoying to know that if you did surrender one, it would be
binned anyway. *I once found someone's registered Oyster and handed it
in, only for it to dawn on me that it was probably going to be binned
without the person who registered it being informed (at least not
before they bought another one).

Eh - how do you "know" this?

My understanding is that surrendered cards are issued again, if
they're in working order, and are not consigned to the bin. Where's
your evidence that they get binned please?

I don't know what the process if for handling registered Oyster cards
that gets handed in is, but these are different from surrendered
Oyster cards.

You are making lazy and inaccurate assumptions that fit your world
view, and proceeding to unequivocally state them as facts.

In message
MIG wrote:

On 3 Feb, 09:44, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:51*am, Graeme wrote:





In message
* * * * * David Hansen wrote:

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 23:27:26 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
ticketyboo wrote this:-

Exactly what happens with Oyster: very many rarely used (including
mine) or never again used cards [1]. But, given the very large gap
between Oyster fares and cash fares, the incentive is there to get an
Oyster card when making only one visit to London. There really ought
to be an expiry date on these type of cards in a metropolitan area -
perhaps 3 years.

Why?

As I understand it the £3.00 fine for getting one covers the cost of
the card and provides a buffer against abuse.

Why this stupid insistence on using emotive words like 'fine' to describe a
simple deposit? *It just devalues any point you might have.

Agreed - it's a feature of David Hansen's writing style that makes
reading his posts rather trying and hectoring.

The cards cost money to produce. The £3 deposit/ charge for them
encourages people to reuse them, rather than bin them.

"Fine" may be the wrong word, but "deposit" is at least as wrong.
"Price" would seem to cover it. There is almost no realistic
opportunity to get the £3 back for the vast majority, and I don't
suppose it's the first thing on relatives' minds when someone dies.


It is a deposit, you can get it back when you finish with the card. If you
don't then that is your choice. I have surrendered a few cards already and
got my deposit on them back.

If it's a fine, it's a fine for losing the card. I had one, lost it,
had to buy another one. I don't expect to get the £3 back, but I may
pay another £3 when I lose this one ...

If you lose your umbrella then you'll have to pay for a new one. Is the cost
of the umbrella a fine?


It's a bit annoying to know that if you did surrender one, it would be
binned anyway. I once found someone's registered Oyster and handed it
in, only for it to dawn on me that it was probably going to be binned
without the person who registered it being informed (at least not
before they bought another one).

Why did you think that? Did you see it binned?

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail
Photo galleries at http://graeme-wall.fotopic.net/

On Feb 3, 9:28*am, David Hansen
wrote:

As I understand it the £3.00 fine for getting one covers the cost of
the card and provides a buffer against abuse.

It's not a fine. It's effectively a purchase price for the card, and
not far off what the cards actually cost. And what's more it's
refundable.

I hadn't thought of it until this thread comes up, but if masses of
inactive cards are having to be held on the database, it will just
grow continuously...

Neil