In article , ()
wrote:

On 30.01.10 7:22, ticketyboo wrote:
On Jan 29, 5:00 pm, Stephen wrote:
On 29 Jan, 14:31, wrote:

And the terminal does not implement the anti-collision function...

I have a Smartlink (similar to Oyster) card for PATH in New Jersey.
It works fine with my Oyster card next to it, but the Oyster will
never read unless I take the Smartlink card away. Not too much of a
problem in this case, since I'm seldom going to want to use both on
the same day, but it could be a real problem as these cards become
more common if you need to carry several around with you, and they
interfere with each other. Clearly they don't have to do this, as
the Smartlink readers will quite happily ignore the Oyster card.

Which further suggests that indeed today Oyster does not implement the
anti-collision function. Maybe the next generation of Oyster terminals
will do that - they have to be rather more powerful, in order to be
able to handle all of the ITSO card types (about 4 in truth) as well
as Oyster and contactless bank payment).

Are there indeed plans for new oyster readers? I imagine that they
would not look any different from an external point of view.

Surely no reader hardware change would be needed, just firmware/software?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jan 30, 10:45*am, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
ticketyboo writes

The access control suppliers really should move on beyond Mifare
Classic for new smart card installations. OK, the simple hack of
access control systems has attacked those that do not even use the
security functions available with Mifare Classic (they attack schemes
that only read the card serial number), but attackers quickly learn
more. Access control should use Mifare DESFire and AES encryption now,
with provision for Mifare Plus (also in its AES version) later
(because Mifare Plus cards will cost less).

The new Freedom Passes currently being issued use the Desfire 4K
chipset, in order to allow for future ITSO compatability. I gather that
Oyster readers were upgraded to read the new Desfire chip at the end of
last year.

This presumably was a software/firmware update, as opposed to any
physical modification - the latter would've entailed an enormous
programme of works!

In message
,
Mizter T writes

On Jan 30, 10:45*am, Paul Terry wrote:

The new Freedom Passes currently being issued use the Desfire 4K
chipset, in order to allow for future ITSO compatability. I gather that
Oyster readers were upgraded to read the new Desfire chip at the end of
last year.

This presumably was a software/firmware update, as opposed to any
physical modification - the latter would've entailed an enormous
programme of works!

I'm not sure. According to the October issue of Freedom Pass News:

"We have had to wait for this opportunity while TfL colleagues amended
their gate and reader network for the new generation cards. So far
approximately 15 Underground/Overground stations have been completed and
approximately 4,000 of the 8,500 bus gate readers have been updated."

This sounds as though the update was more than just a simple data dump
from the central system, but it may have just involved flashing the
firmware in individual readers rather than physical changes, as the
whole process was finished and tested before Christmas.

TfL have also had to supply at least 1.2 million cards for the
changeover, as the old ones cannot be renewed and will all cease to work
on 31st March (as it is a legal requirement for all Concessionary Bus
Travel cards to be ITSO compatible from April).

It seems astonishing that the testing went so smoothly, especially given
that the cards have only a single chip that can hold both Oyster and
ITSO data (two chips on one card was deemed too expensive). But I guess
that the Freedom Pass is a very simple implementation of Oyster, and I
doubt that the ITSO part has been tested at all, given that the only
working ITSO ticket scheme I know of is on Blackpool Borough Council
buses!

--
Paul Terry

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:26:57 -0800, ticketyboo wrote:

On Jan 29, 8:23Â*pm, Matthew Geier
wrote:

Â*The people who make the 'access control' system at my work have said
they want to replace the mag-strip readers with MiFare Classic readers
and replace all our cards.
The access control suppliers really should move on beyond Mifare Classic
for new smart card installations.

I assume they are concerned more with the price of the cards than actual
real security. The current mag cards can be cloned, so can the MiFare
classic, so from that point it's bought nothing. I suspect their main
concern is the maintenance - the mag readers need regular cleaning of the
read heads and wear out and thus need replacing after a time. The cards
wear out from constant swiping. RFID gets rid of a lot of maintenance.
The system is designed around simply reading the serial number of the
card and consulting a database, so they won't be using any of the other
'smart' features either with out a significant redesign of the system.
It's really just a cost cutting exercise.

"Paul Terry" wrote

It seems astonishing that the testing went so smoothly, especially given
that the cards have only a single chip that can hold both Oyster and ITSO
data (two chips on one card was deemed too expensive). But I guess that
the Freedom Pass is a very simple implementation of Oyster, and I doubt
that the ITSO part has been tested at all, given that the only working
ITSO ticket scheme I know of is on Blackpool Borough Council buses!

Presumably London buses will be able to read bus passes issued outside
London.

Peter

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010, CJB wrote:

Recently I obtained a Hillingdon Community Services card which doubles
as a Library user's card. And put it into the same card wallet as my
Oyster card - in which I also keep my bank card. Suddently my Oyster
card stopped working on trains and buses, and even the Heathrow Connect
portable validators wouldn't recognise it - to considerable
embarrasment. The culprit was the Hillingdon Community Services card -
which seems to use the same technology as Oyster and was causing a
confict. An irritation 'cos now I have to keep them in separated. CJB.

My entry card at UCL was the same. I asked my building manager about it,
and he said that it was okay if i tapped my Oyster on the building reader,
as long as i remembered to touch out later. He had a *very* good straight
face.

tom

--
I know thats not really relevant but I've just typed the words and my
backspace key doesn't work. -- phorenzik

In article ,
(Peter Masson) wrote:

"Paul Terry" wrote

It seems astonishing that the testing went so smoothly,
especially given that the cards have only a single chip that can
hold both Oyster and ITSO data (two chips on one card was deemed
too expensive). But I guess that the Freedom Pass is a very
simple implementation of Oyster, and I doubt that the ITSO part
has been tested at all, given that the only working ITSO ticket
scheme I know of is on Blackpool Borough Council buses!

Presumably London buses will be able to read bus passes issued
outside London.

I don't think they can yet. At least they couldn't read mine.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jan 30, 6:25*pm, Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Mizter T writes

On Jan 30, 10:45*am, Paul Terry wrote:
The new Freedom Passes currently being issued use the Desfire 4K
chipset, in order to allow for future ITSO compatability. I gather that
Oyster readers were upgraded to read the new Desfire chip at the end of
last year.
This presumably was a software/firmware update, as opposed to any
physical modification - the latter would've entailed an enormous
programme of works!

I'm not sure. According to the October issue of Freedom Pass News:

"We have had to wait for this opportunity while TfL colleagues amended
their gate and reader network for the new generation cards. So far
approximately 15 Underground/Overground stations have been completed and
approximately 4,000 of the 8,500 bus gate readers have been updated."

This sounds as though the update was more than just a simple data dump
from the central system, but it may have just involved flashing the
firmware in individual readers rather than physical changes, as the
whole process was finished and tested before Christmas.

TfL have also had to supply at least 1.2 million cards for the
changeover, as the old ones cannot be renewed and will all cease to work
on 31st March (as it is a legal requirement for all Concessionary Bus
Travel cards to be ITSO compatible from April).

It seems astonishing that the testing went so smoothly, especially given
that the cards have only a single chip that can hold both Oyster and
ITSO data (two chips on one card was deemed too expensive). But I guess
that the Freedom Pass is a very simple implementation of Oyster, and I
doubt that the ITSO part has been tested at all, given that the only
working ITSO ticket scheme I know of is on Blackpool Borough Council
buses!

From a Cubic man about 18 months ago: latest model gates being
produced then still did not have a controller able to handle ITSO, but
next upgrade to the controller (needing hardware change: more memory,
possibly more powerful processor) would be a drop-in replacement. Then
the older the gate, the more difficult it will be to upgrade it.

ITSO testing? There are services available to do that (but the ITSO
Ltd / Integri certification service doesn't include full functional
testing - AIDC in Barnsley is working up to doing that), and I would
expect Cubic to also do it themselves. But the new Freedom passes of
course also do need testing for ITSO use outside London, and I'm
trying to find out if a reported problem in that operating environment
has been fixed (nobody seemed to be taking ownership of the problem a
couple of months ago, with ITSO Ltd being a headless chicken until
last week when a new CEO took over with DfT funding).

At least half of the buses in Lancs/Cumbria/Blackpool/Blackburn
(NoWcard scheme) are reported as now accepting ITSO on Mifare Classic
and on DESFire, although some have trouble with the Bracknell
microprocessor card. NoWcard is currently going through a core back
office upgrade procurement process.

On 30 Jan 2010 00:29:48 GMT someone who may be "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote this:-

obviously you should wrap the Singapore card in tinfoil - err aluminium
foil - like an RFID passport.

Sleeves and wallets are available [1]. Anyone who does not have
their passport/card(s) in one, and thus is able to know when it is
read, is taking a risk which will only become greater over time.


[1] for example
http://www.smartcardfocus.com/shop/ilp/se~102/p/index.shtml



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:08:26 -0800 (PST) someone who may be D7666
wrote this:-

And if you bothered to read the user information when you got the
oyster card it tells to do EXACTLY that - keep it away from other
cards.

I don't recall any information being provided with the cards our
group got in December, we bought 25-30 of the things. However, they
are not the ones one has to leak personal information to Boris for.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54