In message . li, Tom
Anderson writes

Here is a story which my housemate just told me.

He arrived at Heathrow by aeroplane at 2230 last night (friday). He'd
previously booked a minicab (from Network Cars of Crouch End, for the
benefit of anyone googling that firm in future) to pick him up and
bring him home to Finsbury Park. He'd been quoted a price of 40 pounds.

(Why he didn't just get the Piccadilly line, i don't know - i suppose
because he could expense a taxi, and preferred that to schlepping his
luggage through the tube.)

A colleague of his was flying with him, and lives near us, so they
decided to share the taxi.

The driver told them that he was not insured to take more than one
person, and that the price would therefore be 80 pounds for the two of
them. My housemate asked him to check this with his controller, and
after radioing in, he claimed that it would actually only be 10 pounds
extra, at 50 pounds.

In the end, the colleague was so annoyed by this that she took the
tube. My housemate still took the taxi.

Is there any possible truth to his assertion about insurance, or was
this a barefaced attempt at a scam?

Nothing to do with insurance - he was more likely referring to his
private hire licence. He'd be in serious trouble if he picked-up anyone
who had not been pre-booked. In the case in point, where only one
passenger had been booked, it would be necessary to get back to the
operator and have the booking changed to two people. Some companies
don't charge for this, but many do. In this particular case, he'd be
aware that someone else was going to lose a good fare from Heathrow to
Crouch End for the other passenger. £10 seems reasonable to me, although
certainly not £40.

Out of interest, any idea how much a black cab from Heathrow to
Finsbury Park would cost?

At least £70.
--
Paul Terry

In message , at 14:52:11 on Sat,
20 Feb 2010, Paul Terry remarked:
Nothing to do with insurance - he was more likely referring to his
private hire licence. He'd be in serious trouble if he picked-up anyone
who had not been pre-booked. In the case in point, where only one
passenger had been booked, it would be necessary to get back to the
operator and have the booking changed to two people.

I've never heard of that before. Is it a London thing? I never get asked
how many people are involved when I book a private hire car outside
London, and if they had ever refused to take my wife with me I'd
certainly have noticed!
--
Roland Perry

In message , Roland Perry
writes

In message , at 14:52:11 on Sat,
20 Feb 2010, Paul Terry remarked:

Nothing to do with insurance - he was more likely referring to his
private hire licence. He'd be in serious trouble if he picked-up
anyone who had not been pre-booked. In the case in point, where only
one passenger had been booked, it would be necessary to get back to
the operator and have the booking changed to two people.

I've never heard of that before. Is it a London thing?

Yes - London has its own act for private hire vehicles ("The Private
Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998"). To quote TfL's guidance for drivers
and operators:

"PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire and are therefore
committing the offence of touting for which they may be prosecuted and
their PHV driver’s licence suspended or revoked."

I think that the driver in the case concerned was applying the real
letter of the law in order to extract a bit more cash for the fare,
since he wasn't actually touting. But I suspect he was technically
correct because the passenger who made the booking had presumably only
booked for one person.
--
Paul Terry

In message , at 17:31:54 on Sat,
20 Feb 2010, Paul Terry remarked:
Nothing to do with insurance - he was more likely referring to his
private hire licence. He'd be in serious trouble if he picked-up
anyone who had not been pre-booked. In the case in point, where only
one passenger had been booked, it would be necessary to get back to
the operator and have the booking changed to two people.

I've never heard of that before. Is it a London thing?

Yes - London has its own act for private hire vehicles ("The Private
Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998"). To quote TfL's guidance for drivers
and operators:

"PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire and are therefore
committing the offence of touting for which they may be prosecuted and
their PHV driver’s licence suspended or revoked."

So they can't take a commission to collect "Mr Perry's party" without me
first saying how many people it is? (Modulo less than a car full).
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

So they can't take a commission to collect "Mr Perry's party"
without me first saying how many people it is? (Modulo less than a
car full).

Of course they can.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 17:41:32
on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, remarked:
So they can't take a commission to collect "Mr Perry's party"
without me first saying how many people it is? (Modulo less than a
car full).

Of course they can.

So Paul Terry seems somewhat outvoted on this issue.
--
Roland Perry

In message , Roland Perry
writes

So they can't take a commission to collect "Mr Perry's party" without
me first saying how many people it is? (Modulo less than a car full).

It's entirely up to the operator how they take the booking. Almost all
WWW booking forms ask for the number of passengers along with a mountain
of other details. Telephone operators may or may not ask for such
information.

However, if a company is willing to take a booking for just "a car to
Heathrow" without the knowledge that there are five passengers, two of
whom require child seats and one of whom is disabled, and that there is
a wheelchair, eight large suitcases, two pairs of skis, a double bass
and a guide dog among the party, everyone is going to be disappointed if
a Ford Escort turns up for the job.

So Paul Terry seems somewhat outvoted on this issue.

I don't mind being outvoted in the slightest, but it was not me that
wrote "PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire" ... it was TfL.

As I said, I think the driver concerned was just using this as an excuse
to bump up the fare. However, there is no regulation of the fares
charged for private hire - operators can set whatever conditions they
wish.

--
Paul Terry

On 20 Feb, 17:31, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Roland Perry
writes

In message , at 14:52:11 on Sat,
20 Feb 2010, Paul Terry remarked:
Nothing to do with insurance - he was more likely referring to his
private hire licence. He'd be in serious trouble if he picked-up
anyone who had not been pre-booked. In the case in point, where only
one passenger had been booked, it would be necessary to get back to
the operator and have the booking changed to two people.
I've never heard of that before. Is it a London thing?

Yes - London has its own act for private hire vehicles ("The Private
Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998"). To quote TfL's guidance for drivers
and operators:

"PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire and are therefore
committing the offence of touting for which they may be prosecuted and
their PHV driver’s licence suspended or revoked."

I think that the driver in the case concerned was applying the real
letter of the law in order to extract a bit more cash for the fare,
since he wasn't actually touting. But I suspect he was technically
correct because the passenger who made the booking had presumably only
booked for one person.


So how is that resolved by asking for more money?

Surely taking the extra person for free would not be touting, but
charging extra would be.

On Feb 20, 5:31*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Roland Perry
writes

In message , at 14:52:11 on Sat,
20 Feb 2010, Paul Terry remarked:
Nothing to do with insurance - he was more likely referring to his
private hire licence. He'd be in serious trouble if he picked-up
anyone who had not been pre-booked. In the case in point, where only
one passenger had been booked, it would be necessary to get back to
the operator and have the booking changed to two people.
I've never heard of that before. Is it a London thing?

Yes - London has its own act for private hire vehicles ("The Private
Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998"). To quote TfL's guidance for drivers
and operators:

"PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire and are therefore
committing the offence of touting for which they may be prosecuted and
their PHV driver’s licence suspended or revoked."

I think that the driver in the case concerned was applying the real
letter of the law in order to extract a bit more cash for the fare,
since he wasn't actually touting. But I suspect he was technically
correct because the passenger who made the booking had presumably only
booked for one person.

Sorry Paul but I have never come across a minicab firm in London that
demands to know how exactly many passengers are being picked up for a
normal booking - obviously if it's five or more people then you're
into booking a people carrier territory, that or two minicabs, but
never has the minicab office wanted to know whether it was one, two,
three or four passengers. Nor have I ever come across a minicab that
has turned up and refused passengers because there's too many
passengers (if the number of passengers is higher than one but no more
than four, of course). Minicab firms book "cars" (i.e. carloads) , not
individual passengers.

I really don't think it could possibly count as "plying for trade"
when a minicab picks up three passengers instead of two. Nor does
picking up someone else en route count either i.e. someone else known
to the existing passengers. All sorts of completely normal
arrangements would be considered null and void under your above
reading of the rules.

The whole anti-"plying for trade" rule is about prohibiting minicab
drivers from roaming the streets looking for a non-booked job - i.e.
those minicab drivers milling around outside a club or bar at kicking
out time, or those who do slow drive-bys next to night bus stops
trying to pick up a fare. Both of which still happen.

In message
,
Mizter T writes

In message , at 14:52:11 on Sat,
20 Feb 2010, Paul Terry remarked:

Yes - London has its own act for private hire vehicles ("The Private
Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998"). To quote TfL's guidance for drivers
and operators:

"PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire and are therefore
committing the offence of touting for which they may be prosecuted and
their PHV driver’s licence suspended or revoked."

Sorry Paul but I have never come across a minicab firm in London that
demands to know how exactly many passengers are being picked up for a
normal booking

They always ask me how many passengers, if only in order to send the
appropriate size of vehicle. They also usually ask if there's a lot of
luggage (in which case they send an estate or MPV), if any child seats
are needed, and so on.

Almost all WWW booking forms for private hire similarly ask for these
details.

However, I'm merely quoting above what TfL say about unbooked
passengers, and commenting that the driver probably used this as an
excuse for bumping up the fare. It certainly wouldn't have been because
of an insurance issue, as he claimed.

Minicab firms book "cars" (i.e. carloads) , not individual passengers.

They need to know more detail than you imply, especially on airport runs
- it's not just the number of passengers, but also whether there are
particular needs (such as child seats, disabled access, or a guide dog),
large amounts of luggage, difficult items to transport (e.g. skis) and
so on. Most web booking forms ask for these details, but what an
operator asks for on the phone is up to him or her.

I really don't think it could possibly count as "plying for trade"
when a minicab picks up three passengers instead of two.

I agree. As I said earlier I think the driver was simply using the
licence regulations (described as "insurance") as an excuse for bumping
up the agreed fare. It would have been more honest to say something like
"We charge extra for each unbooked passenger" (or each extra drop-off
point, if that is what was actually involved).

--
Paul Terry