"Matt J Forbes" wrote in message
...
In Portsmouth, the two major operators (First Hants & Dorset and
Stagecoach) issue zero fare tickets to those travelling on OAP /
Disabled passes, but seemingly without taking into account the
origin
or destination of the journey in question. I'm no expert on these
things, but I can only imagine that it must cause nightmares for the
company accountants when billing the council for 'lost' revenue.

The boarding point of the journey is what matters, as that determines
which Local Authority will pick up the tab, and the ticket machine
will already be set to the boarding stage.

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the
0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900.

So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham,
and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton.
If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the same
bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into
Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT use
their OAP pass.....

Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any
time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto
another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930. Couldn't
get home again, either, until after 0930.

Unless, of course, they were willing to pay. And many are not willing
to pay ANYTHING.... they would rather wait two hours than pay, say,
£1.60 or so, to travel to a point from which they CAN travel onwards
without further charge..... If you said to me, "I want you to stand
there for two hours, for which I will pay you £1.60", I, and no doubt
many other people, would tell you where to go!!!


Passengers holding multi-journey tickets are not issued with a
separate ticket for each journey, but a button is pressed on the
machine to account for their presence, as are those offering the
return portion of a return ticket. Whether there are separate
buttons
for day returns, weekly/monthly/annual seasons, scholars passes etc,
I'm not sure.

Sometimes they are, depends on the operator's policy.


Regards,

Matt

and the ticket machine
will already be set to the boarding stage.

Duh - of course it will be. Why didn't that occur to me?!

M

In message , Ian
writes
If you said to me, "I want you to stand
there for two hours, for which I will pay you £1.60", I, and no doubt
many other people, would tell you where to go!!!
I expect you would, but were you financially inactive, as are most
pensioners like myself, things are very different. For £1.79 you can
buy scrambled eggs on toast at Morrisson's it's not just a wait but a
chance to get a meal inside of you.
--
Clive

Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the

0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use their
passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London AREA.

So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in Kingston
to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on
for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would have
to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before 09:00
they don't say.

In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900.

So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham,
and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton.
If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the same
bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into
Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT use

their OAP pass.....

Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any
time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto
another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930. Couldn't

get home again, either, until after 0930.


--
Mike D

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01cb0994$b7750360$LocalHost@default...
Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before
the

0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

beg to differ.... what you are (correctly) demonstarting is that
different LAs have different ules. And London has a completely
different set of rules.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use
their
passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London
AREA.

So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in
Kingston
to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get
on
for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would
have
to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before
09:00
they don't say.

In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900.

So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham,
and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton.
If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the
same
bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into
Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT
use

their OAP pass.....

Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any
time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto
another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930.
Couldn't

get home again, either, until after 0930.


--
Mike D

Ian wrote in article
. ..

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01cb0994$b7750360$LocalHost@default...
Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before
the

0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to
their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

beg to differ.... what you are (correctly) demonstarting is that
different LAs have different ules. And London has a completely
different set of rules.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

My point, which I have obviously not made clear, is that the LA rules
are area rules and apply to bus boardings /in their own area/ rather
than Own Holders in own area.

--
Mike D

On Jun 11, 9:37*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the
0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use their
passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London AREA.

So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in Kingston
to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on
for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would have
to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before 09:00
they don't say.

Sorry Michael but it ain't that simple. In London, TfL allow *all*
pass holders - both Freedom Pass holders and ENCTS senior pass holders
- to use their passes at any time (i.e. inc. before 09:30 and after
23:00) on London bus services. Other local authorities meanwhile may
allow local pass holders 'extra' travel time (e.g. before 09:30) but
enforce the 09:30 - 23:00 weekday time window on non-local ENCTS pass
holders.

Also, with regards to your Kingston to Dorking example - this is route
465, and is operated (by Metrobus) for TfL, and is hence a full part
of the London Bus network. As such, the TfL rules apply to this route
- so all ENCTS pass holders (both Londoners and those from yonder the
smoke) can use this bus service for free at ant time of the day.

There are some routes on the fringes of London which are not part of
the London Buses network, but where there are arrangements for the
acceptance of TfL tickets for part of the route - the 84 (Metroline)
accepts TfL tickets between New Barnet and Potters Bar, but it also
then continues on beyond Potters Bar to St. Albans. Unfortunately a
recent redesign of the fares section of the TfL website has resulted
in detailed info for such routes vanishing.

However, for the bare bones see the "Concessionary bus passes from
outside London" section on this page:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14305.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-4

Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 11, 9:37 pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the
0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.
The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

There are a few other wrinkles outside London.

OAPs on Whippet buses are required to place the pass on the smart card
reader until the destination number can be keyed. A zero value ticket
is then issued. The London freedom card, not being ITSO compliant, is
not acceptable to the reader. The correct procedure is then to use the
manual backup keying sequence

Stagecoach Cambridge on one route now let the driver issue zero value
fares after 9.25. This variant arose as it was an hourly frequency
route with the bus timed at 9.26. but on school days often being late. A
dispute then arose as to the actual time and delaying tactics being
used on speed of boarding.

Alan Quick wrote on 12 June 2010 16:58:36 ...
Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 11, 9:37 pm, "Michael R N wrote:

wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the
0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.
The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

There are a few other wrinkles outside London.

OAPs on Whippet buses are required to place the pass on the smart card
reader until the destination number can be keyed. A zero value ticket
is then issued. The London freedom card, not being ITSO compliant, is
not acceptable to the reader.

London's Freedom Passes were all reissued recently. The new ones, valid
from 1 April 2010, incorporate both ITSO and Oyster technology, and
should be compatible with both systems.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Mizter T wrote in

On Jun 11, 9:37*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use
their
passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London
AREA.

So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in
Kingston
to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on
for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would
have
to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before
09:00
they don't say.

.. Sorry Michael but it ain't that simple. In London, TfL allow *all*
pass holders - both Freedom Pass holders and ENCTS senior pass holders
- to use their passes at any time (i.e. inc. before 09:30 and after
23:00) on London bus services. Other local authorities meanwhile may
allow local pass holders 'extra' travel time (e.g. before 09:30) but
enforce the 09:30 - 23:00 weekday time window on non-local ENCTS pass
holders.

Have you examples of "Other local authorities" that actually do this
discrimination on buses ? Or a legal opinion on its allowability ?

.. Also, with regards to your Kingston to Dorking example - this is
route
465, and is operated (by Metrobus) for TfL, and is hence a full part
of the London Bus network. As such, the TfL rules apply to this route
- so all ENCTS pass holders (both Londoners and those from yonder the
smoke) can use this bus service for free at ant time of the day.

=quote
http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/fre...here/buses.htm
Your Freedom Pass is valid on most local buses (in the Greater London
area) at any time of day or night. ==

In the Greater London area the London Borough where the F/ENCTS holder
got on would be charged.

Outside that area, eg if they got on in Leatherhead before 09:00, then
acceptance would cause Mole Valley council to be charged and they have
not agreed to pay.


There are some routes on the fringes of London which are not part of
the London Buses network, but where there are arrangements for the
acceptance of TfL tickets for part of the route - the 84 (Metroline)
[...]

I have the pre-2009 download but for Senior Pass purposes it hardly
matters except for the argument above wrt Twirlies since these are all
local bus services.

--
Mike D