Had a thought this morning, having seen the posters saying that the
Hammersmith bit of the H&C is to close for a month in Jul/Aug. So far
as I can see, the Circle will return to its old pattern with nothing
being suggested about increasing frequency, and even if they did it
would still bunch and leave large gaps, which was the key issue with
the Circle as it was. There will therefore be an issue with large
gaps in service and undercapacity between Paddington and Euston/the
City, which is already a very busy stretch with trains sometimes full
to the point that nobody else can get on.

So, here's a thought - during this period, to "back up" the Circle
Line, could the Wimblewares be joined to the H&C to operate through
from Barking to Wimbledon rather than breaking the link one stop short
of Padd? They're both C-stock, and both meet at Edgware Road. Are
there any other factors that are an issue, e.g. different train
lengths?

Neil

In article
,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

Had a thought this morning, having seen the posters saying that the
Hammersmith bit of the H&C is to close for a month in Jul/Aug. So far
as I can see, the Circle will return to its old pattern with nothing
being suggested about increasing frequency, and even if they did it
would still bunch and leave large gaps, which was the key issue with
the Circle as it was. There will therefore be an issue with large
gaps in service and undercapacity between Paddington and Euston/the
City, which is already a very busy stretch with trains sometimes full
to the point that nobody else can get on.

So, here's a thought - during this period, to "back up" the Circle
Line, could the Wimblewares be joined to the H&C to operate through
from Barking to Wimbledon rather than breaking the link one stop short
of Padd? They're both C-stock, and both meet at Edgware Road. Are
there any other factors that are an issue, e.g. different train lengths?

Can't think of any adverse factors. The worst might be driver knowledge
but they could use H&C drivers East of Edgware Road and District drivers
between Wimbledon and there. The stock and train lengths are all the same
from the same stock pool.

But it's far too sensible an idea for LUL, surely?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jul 8, 12:47*pm, wrote:

(Neil *Williams) wrote:

Had a thought this morning, having seen the posters saying that the
Hammersmith bit of the H&C is to close for a month in Jul/Aug. *So far
as I can see, the Circle will return to its old pattern with nothing
being suggested about increasing frequency, and even if they did it
would still bunch and leave large gaps, which was the key issue with
the Circle as it was. *There will therefore be an issue with large
gaps in service and undercapacity between Paddington and Euston/the
City, which is already a very busy stretch with trains sometimes full
to the point that nobody else can get on.

So, here's a thought - during this period, to "back up" the Circle
Line, could the Wimblewares be joined to the H&C to operate through
from Barking to Wimbledon rather than breaking the link one stop short
of Padd? *They're both C-stock, and both meet at Edgware Road. *Are
there any other factors that are an issue, e.g. different train lengths?

Can't think of any adverse factors. The worst might be driver knowledge
but they could use H&C drivers East of Edgware Road and District drivers
between Wimbledon and there. The stock and train lengths are all the same
from the same stock pool.

But it's far too sensible an idea for LUL, surely?

Especially when sensible 'armchair planners' such as yourself have
undoubtedly considered the myriad of issues that would likely entail
from such a proposal...

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Jul 8, 12:47*pm, wrote:

(Neil *Williams) wrote:

Had a thought this morning, having seen the posters saying that the
Hammersmith bit of the H&C is to close for a month in Jul/Aug. So
far as I can see, the Circle will return to its old pattern with
nothing being suggested about increasing frequency, and even if
they did it would still bunch and leave large gaps, which was the
key issue with the Circle as it was. *There will therefore be an
issue with large gaps in service and undercapacity between
Paddington and Euston/the City, which is already a very busy stretch
with trains sometimes full to the point that nobody else can get on.

So, here's a thought - during this period, to "back up" the Circle
Line, could the Wimblewares be joined to the H&C to operate through
from Barking to Wimbledon rather than breaking the link one stop
short of Padd? *They're both C-stock, and both meet at Edgware Road.
*Are there any other factors that are an issue, e.g. different train
*lengths?

Can't think of any adverse factors. The worst might be driver
knowledge but they could use H&C drivers East of Edgware Road and
District drivers between Wimbledon and there. The stock and train
lengths are all the same from the same stock pool.

But it's far too sensible an idea for LUL, surely?

Especially when sensible 'armchair planners' such as yourself have
undoubtedly considered the myriad of issues that would likely entail
from such a proposal...

Like what? Seriously, it would be in effect a combination of the existing
Wimbleware service with a truncated H&C service, switching at Edgware
Road, not a bad location for such a switch.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Like what? Seriously, it would be in effect a combination of the
existing Wimbleware service with a truncated H&C service, switching at
Edgware Road, not a bad location for such a switch.

That's combining 2 lines which have to mesh with a ton of other services
all around the 'circle' (ie, merging with the Metropolitan Line, Circle
Line, District Line) at a bunch of flat junctions (is there any grade
separation anywhere?), which sounds easier said than done to me.

Firstly, you'd have to assume that the existing timetable would allow the
services to run straight through - firstly, are there exactly the same
number of services on each line per hour? I doubt it? The minute you add
in another service on one of the stretches, that's likely to have a knock
on effect to the other lines, and once you start messing around with
those, they'll knock on everywhere else, surely? And even if they're
exactly the same number of trains on each route, do they arrive and
depart from Edgware Road with a convenient 30 second between them? If
not, that would impact other services again.

Or do they mesh in perfectly?

On 8 July, 17:38, Martin Petrov
wrote:
Like what? Seriously, it would be in effect a combination of the
existing Wimbleware service with a truncated H&C service, switching at
Edgware Road, not a bad location for such a switch.

That's combining 2 lines which have to mesh with a ton of other services
all around the 'circle' (ie, merging with the Metropolitan Line, Circle
Line, District Line) at a bunch of flat junctions (is there any grade
separation anywhere?), which sounds easier said than done to me.

Firstly, you'd have to assume that the existing timetable would allow the
services to run straight through - firstly, are there exactly the same
number of services on each line per hour? I doubt it? The minute you add
in another service on one of the stretches, that's likely to have a knock
on effect to the other lines, and once you start messing around with
those, they'll knock on everywhere else, surely? And even if they're
exactly the same number of trains on each route, do they arrive and
depart from Edgware Road with a convenient 30 second between them? If
not, that would impact other services again.

Or do they mesh in perfectly?

One big problem that will have to be sorted is the loss of Hammersmith
Depot during the closure so trains that normally 'stable' there will
either be locked in during the closure (meaning less trains for the
services mentioned above) or room will have to be found elsewhere for
them. This means less efficient use of trains and train crew with
alterations to other lines timetables to provide paths.

In addition, the traincrew will have to travel from (and to
Hammersmith) to Edgware Road to pick-up their trains. This will
involve taxi travel and more time penalties.

So, don't expect miracles to happen.

RT

In article ,
(Martin Petrov) wrote:

Like what? Seriously, it would be in effect a combination of the
existing Wimbleware service with a truncated H&C service, switching at
Edgware Road, not a bad location for such a switch.

That's combining 2 lines which have to mesh with a ton of other
services all around the 'circle' (ie, merging with the Metropolitan
Line, Circle Line, District Line) at a bunch of flat junctions (is
there any grade separation anywhere?), which sounds easier said
than done to me.

Firstly, you'd have to assume that the existing timetable would
allow the services to run straight through - firstly, are there
exactly the same number of services on each line per hour? I doubt
it? The minute you add in another service on one of the stretches,
that's likely to have a knock on effect to the other lines, and
once you start messing around with those, they'll knock on
everywhere else, surely? And even if they're exactly the same
number of trains on each route, do they arrive and depart from
Edgware Road with a convenient 30 second between them? If not, that
would impact other services again.

Or do they mesh in perfectly?

I accept there could be layover time at Edgware Road but it can take that
easily enough with 4 platforms and the Circle the only other service. I
thought both Wimbleware and H&C services had the same number of trains per
hour but don't have access to a WTT to check.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Hertsman wrote:

One big problem that will have to be sorted is the loss of Hammersmith
Depot during the closure so trains that normally 'stable' there will
either be locked in during the closure (meaning less trains for the
services mentioned above) or room will have to be found elsewhere for
them.

Shouldn't be too much of a problem. Neasden is capable of absorbing some of
the maintenance, if staff can be redeployed from Hammersmith, and only this
week, as a result of the Barking fire, Wembley sidings (the site of the
former car sheds) has been full with six sets of C stock.

In article
,
(Hertsman) wrote:

One big problem that will have to be sorted is the loss of Hammersmith
Depot during the closure so trains that normally 'stable' there will
either be locked in during the closure (meaning less trains for the
services mentioned above) or room will have to be found elsewhere for
them. This means less efficient use of trains and train crew with
alterations to other lines timetables to provide paths.

How much has been used recently? We have already been told that Neasden
was used.

In addition, the traincrew will have to travel from (and to
Hammersmith) to Edgware Road to pick-up their trains. This will
involve taxi travel and more time penalties.

District via Earl's Court?

So, don't expect miracles to happen.

We are only asking for a bit more imagination.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Neil Williams wrote:

So, here's a thought - during this period, to "back up" the Circle
Line, could the Wimblewares be joined to the H&C to operate through
from Barking to Wimbledon rather than breaking the link one stop short
of Padd? They're both C-stock, and both meet at Edgware Road. Are
there any other factors that are an issue, e.g. different train
lengths?

I seem to recall this precise combination ran on some engineering weekends
in the 1990s when the south side of the Circle was closed for work. So from
an equipment point of view there should be no problems. Timetabling may be
another matter.