On 09 Dec 2003 05:54:39 -0800, Jym Dyer wrote:

NYC buses now accommodate wheelchairs. It takes about 5
minutes to load or unload one, and even on not-very-frequent
routes, this sometimes means that the following bus passes
the one doing an unloading operation.

=v= Bear in mind that the Americans with Disabilities Act gave
the nation 20 years to figure out good ways to accommodate folks
in wheelchairs. An *extremely* generous amount of time to phase
things in, while an entire generation had no access. Yet bus
companies, like most businesses, waited until the last minute to
slap together a half-assed solution.
_Jym_

P.S.: I've trimmed the uk.* newsgroups from followups, as the
ADA doesn't apply to the U.K.

... and I've added back uk.transport.london because the Disability
Discrimination Act _does_ apply to the UK.

The British solution has been to build buses with ramps that are
activated from the cab. The driver doesn't leave their secure
environment.

I would challenge MTA's claim that it operates, "This makes New York
City Transit's system the world's largest accessible fleet." [of
accessible buses]"

According to
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffbus.htm

of some 4,400 buses.

With roll-out of the fully accessible fleet in London, there is a
progressive withdrawal of the Mobility Bus network (a low frequency
scheduled paratransit service).


Rob.
(groups trimmed to London and those carried by my server...)

--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On 09 Dec 2003 05:54:39 -0800, Jym Dyer wrote:
NYC buses now accommodate wheelchairs. It takes about 5
minutes to load or unload one, and even on not-very-frequent
routes, this sometimes means that the following bus passes

=v= Bear in mind that the Americans with Disabilities Act gave
the nation 20 years to figure out good ways to accommodate folks
B
The British solution has been to build buses with ramps that are
activated from the cab. The driver doesn't leave their secure
environment.

unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.

I would challenge MTA's claim that it operates, "This makes New York
City Transit's system the world's largest accessible fleet." [of
accessible buses]"

probably accurate


According to
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

Bob

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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:


unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.

I would challenge MTA's claim that it operates, "This makes New York
City Transit's system the world's largest accessible fleet." [of
accessible buses]"

probably accurate


According to
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.

http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

Bob


--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin
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In misc.transport.urban-transit Access Systems wrote:
In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"

LT proclaims that their bus fleet will be fully DDA compliant by 2017

NYC TA buses have been 100% ADA compliant for a number of years...

also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Bob



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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
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Access Systems wrote:
Access Systems wrote:
Robert Woolley wrote:
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

That depends on the driver.

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"

Those are the only ones with extending ramps, but IIRC a lot of the
others have automatic folding ramps, which are usually more efficient.
However, ramp reliability is a problem - probably the biggest reason for
buses not being fully accessible.

More and more London bus routes are cashless, so in future some
operators may use manually folding ramps, which will solve the
reliability problem.

LT proclaims that their bus fleet will be fully DDA compliant by 2017

I thought they were claiming 2012?

NYC TA buses have been 100% ADA compliant for a number of years...

Robert Woolley wrote:

With roll-out of the fully accessible fleet in London, there is a
progressive withdrawal of the Mobility Bus network

Are you sure? UIVMM most of the Mobility Bus network is in the outer
suburbs, with long routes that penetrate into estates that regular
routes do not, to provide disabled and elderly people (and anyone else
who wants to use them) a 1 seat ride to the most popular destinations.

(a low frequency scheduled paratransit service).

It is low frequency (typically only two journeys, only 1 day per week)
and it is scheduled, but is it paratransit?

I thought "paratransit" referred to the (council operated) Dial-A-Ride
schemes.

Access Systems wrote in message ...
also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Thats because they're not nearly so deep down and so its a lot easier to
retro fit lifts. Though to be honest even assuming someone in a wheelchair
could get down to the platform , how they'd get on a tube train in the rush
hour beats me.

B2003

In misc.transport.urban-transit Boltar wrote:
Access Systems wrote in message ...
also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Thats because they're not nearly so deep down and so its a lot easier to

only a small percentage are "deep" what's the problem with the rest

retro fit lifts. Though to be honest even assuming someone in a wheelchair
could get down to the platform , how they'd get on a tube train in the rush
hour beats me.

why should there be a problem...people in wheelchairs regularly ride NYC
and Tokyo subways at rush hour, what makes the tube any less possible.

this has always been the biggest obstacle to access, people who have never
been there (using a wheelchair) telling the users what they "can't" do
without ever bothering to find out what they "can do".

the last couple times WMATA (DC) tried to count the number of wheelchair
users they gave up because there were too many. I have been on trains at
rush hour when 5,6 or more people in wheelchairs were on the same train,
and probably more I didn't see. I have heard unoffical numbers of several
thousand a day use the subway in wheelchairs. "if you build it we will
come"

but there is a certain minimum number of stations have to be accessible
for the system to be functionally usable. And it is generally been found
that the stations that need to be accessible are the same ones that
everyone else uses, so start by making the busiest stations accessible.

as an aside the loss of the World Trade center station on PATH and NYCTA
was a major loss for people with disabilites in NYC as it was the major
accessible station in lower Mannhatan and the substitute stations were for
the most part inaccessible.

Bob


--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob
NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail
NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers
NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:41:24 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:

In misc.transport.urban-transit Access Systems wrote:
In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"

LT proclaims that their bus fleet will be fully DDA compliant by 2017


LT ceased to exist on 15 July.

The 2017 timetable relates to DDA requirements. Routemasters are
rapidly becoming the last non accessible vehicles in London and
they're being withdrawn. Soon they'll only be left on a couple of
special 'heritage; routes....

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk