On 09 Dec 2003 05:54:39 -0800, Jym Dyer wrote:

NYC buses now accommodate wheelchairs. It takes about 5
minutes to load or unload one, and even on not-very-frequent
routes, this sometimes means that the following bus passes
the one doing an unloading operation.

=v= Bear in mind that the Americans with Disabilities Act gave
the nation 20 years to figure out good ways to accommodate folks
in wheelchairs. An *extremely* generous amount of time to phase
things in, while an entire generation had no access. Yet bus
companies, like most businesses, waited until the last minute to
slap together a half-assed solution.
_Jym_

P.S.: I've trimmed the uk.* newsgroups from followups, as the
ADA doesn't apply to the U.K.

... and I've added back uk.transport.london because the Disability
Discrimination Act _does_ apply to the UK.

The British solution has been to build buses with ramps that are
activated from the cab. The driver doesn't leave their secure
environment.

I would challenge MTA's claim that it operates, "This makes New York
City Transit's system the world's largest accessible fleet." [of
accessible buses]"

According to
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffbus.htm

of some 4,400 buses.

With roll-out of the fully accessible fleet in London, there is a
progressive withdrawal of the Mobility Bus network (a low frequency
scheduled paratransit service).


Rob.
(groups trimmed to London and those carried by my server...)

--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On 09 Dec 2003 05:54:39 -0800, Jym Dyer wrote:
NYC buses now accommodate wheelchairs. It takes about 5
minutes to load or unload one, and even on not-very-frequent
routes, this sometimes means that the following bus passes

=v= Bear in mind that the Americans with Disabilities Act gave
the nation 20 years to figure out good ways to accommodate folks
B
The British solution has been to build buses with ramps that are
activated from the cab. The driver doesn't leave their secure
environment.

unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.

I would challenge MTA's claim that it operates, "This makes New York
City Transit's system the world's largest accessible fleet." [of
accessible buses]"

probably accurate


According to
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

Bob

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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:


unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.

I would challenge MTA's claim that it operates, "This makes New York
City Transit's system the world's largest accessible fleet." [of
accessible buses]"

probably accurate


According to
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.

http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

Bob


--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin
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ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob
NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail
NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers
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THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
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In misc.transport.urban-transit Access Systems wrote:
In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"

LT proclaims that their bus fleet will be fully DDA compliant by 2017

NYC TA buses have been 100% ADA compliant for a number of years...

also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Bob



--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin
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NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail
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Access Systems wrote:
Access Systems wrote:
Robert Woolley wrote:
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

That depends on the driver.

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"

Those are the only ones with extending ramps, but IIRC a lot of the
others have automatic folding ramps, which are usually more efficient.
However, ramp reliability is a problem - probably the biggest reason for
buses not being fully accessible.

More and more London bus routes are cashless, so in future some
operators may use manually folding ramps, which will solve the
reliability problem.

LT proclaims that their bus fleet will be fully DDA compliant by 2017

I thought they were claiming 2012?

NYC TA buses have been 100% ADA compliant for a number of years...

Access Systems wrote in message ...
also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Thats because they're not nearly so deep down and so its a lot easier to
retro fit lifts. Though to be honest even assuming someone in a wheelchair
could get down to the platform , how they'd get on a tube train in the rush
hour beats me.

B2003

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:41:24 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:

In misc.transport.urban-transit Access Systems wrote:
In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"

LT proclaims that their bus fleet will be fully DDA compliant by 2017


LT ceased to exist on 15 July.

The 2017 timetable relates to DDA requirements. Routemasters are
rapidly becoming the last non accessible vehicles in London and
they're being withdrawn. Soon they'll only be left on a couple of
special 'heritage; routes....

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

"Access Systems" wrote:

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

[...]

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"


Your source is mistaken. The TfL website states (as referenced in a
previous message) that "84% of the total bus fleet of 6,663 [about 5600] is
wheelchair accessible". Not merely "low-floor" - specifically "wheelchair
accessible". Any bus that is low-floor but does not have a wheelchair ramp
is regarded as part of the 16% of the fleet that is *not* wheelchair
accessible.

It is true that the first few hundred low-floor buses in London were not
fitted with wheelchair ramps^. A few have had ramps retrofitted; a few may
remain in London service unmodified. However, the vast majority have been
withdrawn from London service and replaced by newer low-floor buses that
*do* have wheelchair ramps fitted.



It may seem strange that so many low-floor buses entered service without
wheelchair ramps. While with hindsight this clearly was a short-sighted
policy, it did sort of make sense at the time.

Thanks to relatively high ridership, and (by US standards) relatively narrow
roads that require more manoeuvrable (ie shorter) vehicles, many London bus
routes need double-deckers. By about 1996, UK bus technology had progressed
to the stage where low-floor single-deckers were becoming standard, but
low-floor double-deckers (which presented a greater technical challenge)
were still some way off. It was not possible to fit folding-step wheelchair
lifts to standard-floor buses (these lifts are not legal in the UK if
operated (US-style) from the cab - and, as London bus drivers carry cash and
give change, it is not generally considered safe for them to leave the cab
to operate such lifts). Hence, normal double-deck buses could not be made
wheelchair-accessible.

So, at this time there was no concept of a London-wide wheelchair-accessible
bus network. Without such a concept, there was no perceived need for *any*
bus to be wheelchair-accessible (even though this would have been quite
possible for single-deckers). However, low-floor buses *were* considered
desirable, because they offered easier access to the "ambulant disabled" and
those with pushchairs (strollers). Hence, low-floor buses (but without
wheelchair ramps) were specified for most single-deck routes.

A couple of years later, low-floor double-deckers were developed, and the
concept of a wheelchair-accessible London-wide bus network came into vogue.
For the last four years, all new buses for London service (both single-deck
and double-deck, and including the articulated single-deck buses that have
been introduced on a handful of routes since Summer 2002) have been
low-floor and wheelchair-accessible.



^ = I don't have the figures, but I'd be surprised if it was as many as two
thousand. Still, I could be wrong.




--
MetroGnome
~~~~~~~~~~

(To email me, edit return address)

"Access Systems" wrote:



NYC TA buses have been 100% ADA compliant for a number of years...

Yes, but how accessible are they overall to the disabled population? Not
just wheelchair users, but also the far more numerous "ambulant disabled"
who can walk with difficulty (most of whom don't consider themselves to be
"disabled enough" to use the lift)? A standard-floor bus with a wheelchair
lift fitted may meet ADA requirements - but it still leaves a *lot* to be
desired as far as disability access is concerned, when compared with a
low-floor bus.

As you note elsewhere in the thread, the private bus lines running routes
under contract to the City (which I understand are marketed as part of the
NYCTA network, and accept MetroCards) are not yet 100% ADA compliant.





also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

NOT TRUE!

Quite the reverse, in fact - the London Underground has a much higher
percentage of stations accessible than the New York Subway. Look at the MTA
and TfL websites (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/ada/stations.htm and
http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/tubem...s_guide_1.pdf).



I assume that we are talking about step-free access from street to platform
(ie accessibility for wheelchair users). If we consider that a station is
"accessible" if there is step-free access to and from trains running in both
directions, on at least one line serving that station (and count it as "half
a station" if this applies only to trains running in one direction), we
find:

New York Subway - 37 accessible stations, plus 3 accessible in only one
direction, to give a total of 38½ stations out of a possible 468. This is
8.23%.

London Underground - 44 accessible stations, plus 11 accessible in only
one direction, to give a total of 49½ stations out of a possible 275. This
is 18.00%.


If we also consider the MTA's and TfL's "secondary" Metro systems, then New
York is even worse by comparison. Including the Staten Island Railway and
the Docklands Light Railway, we find:

New York - 42½ stations out of a possible 490. This is 8.67%.
London - 81½ stations out of a possible 305. This is 26.72%.



New York seems to have a lot of catching up to do...



--
MetroGnome
~~~~~~~~~~

(To email me, edit return address)




Notes about my figures
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I've tried to be as balanced as possible.

I've assumed that the MTA list is completely up-to-date (it includes, for
example, the brand new access at 72nd Street on the IRT, which was not shown
as accessible on the November 2003 system map). I've just taken the
oft-quoted "468 subway stations" figure as correct - this presumably
includes the temporarily-closed stations near Coney Island, and possibly
some arguable cases.

The London access guide is dated 2002, and includes four stations (Kilburn,
Earl's Court, Fulham Broadway, and Hounslow East - shown with the wheelchair
symbol crossed out) where access was then either under construction or
suspended temporarily - I've assumed that wheelchair access has now been
completed/restored (it definitely has been at some of them, but I'm not 100%
sure it has been at all of them). I've also accounted for Heron Quays
having re-opened. In arguable cases (where interchange between lines
involves the use of public streets or walkways), I have considered Shadwell
and Hammersmith to be single stations, but Paddington and Canary Wharf to
each consist of two separate stations.