In message of Wed, 8 Dec 2010
18:10:50 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes
The full list of fares for 2011 are now available in all their glory on the
TfL website:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/default.aspx

The single fare finder is now available in 2011 flavour too:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/farefinder/next/

There's a summary of the changes he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/17538.aspx

[snip]

I also note that maximum journey times "are increasing for journeys in Zones
1-4", which suggests that they were perhaps a bit too tight for
slow-coaches, or perhaps more likely the limit could be hit when there were
service disruptions - anyhow, good to know that these things are not set in
stone and can and do change in response to feedback and monitoring.


They change regularly. ISTR, they were increased to 150 minutes at the
start of 2009; they were quietly reduced to the current limits in
September 2009 and the following tweaks were made in January 2010:
M-F = 1900 M-F 1900 + Sat Sun
Z1/Z2 90 100 110
Z1-Z2/Z2-Z3 90 100 110

The following will happen in 2011:
(Bottom of http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14872.aspx#jan2011)

M-F = 1900 M-F 1900 + Sat Sun
Z1/Z2/Z2-Z3 90 100 110
Z1-Z2 100 110 120
Z1-Z3/Z1-Z4 110 125 135

i.e. Z1-Z2 gets a 3 zone limit and Z1-Z3 and Z1-Z4 both get a 5 zone
limit.

I suppose, I should show that:
Zones M-F = 1900 M-F 1900 + Sat Sun
1 70 80 85
2 80 90 100
3 90 100 110
4 100 110 120
5 110 125 135

I have found these limits bite when OSI is used to fuse journeys.
The extra time should eliminate such overcharging for me. (Oyster
automatically refunds for registered cards.)

It won't address a short stay at Finsbury Park where each validator
heuristically distinguishes entry and exit in the absence of gatelines.
1) Touch in at any station - e.g. Manor House;
2) Touch out at Finsbury Park;
3) A touch again at Finsbury Park WITHIN 30 MINUTES is a touch out;
4) Touch out at the same station as 1). i.e. Manor House.

ISTR you are charged for an unfinished journey and an unstarted journey.
Oyster has no automatic mechanism to recognise this.

OTOH, Manor House via Finsbury Park to any other station, e.g. Arsenal,
is charged correctly.

This seems to be a FPK peculiarity. I found no problem at Mill Hill
East. I haven't tried at Waterloo on the W&C or at National Rail
stations which don't have gatelines.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Dec 9, 1:53*pm, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message of Wed, 8 Dec 2010
18:10:50 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes

The full list of fares for 2011 are now available in all their glory on the
TfL website:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/default.aspx

The single fare finder is now available in 2011 flavour too:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/farefinder/next/

There's a summary of the changes he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/17538.aspx

[snip]

I also note that maximum journey times "are increasing for journeys in Zones
1-4", which suggests that they were perhaps a bit too tight for
slow-coaches, or perhaps more likely the limit could be hit when there were
service disruptions - anyhow, good to know that these things are not set in
stone and can and do change in response to feedback and monitoring.

They change regularly. ISTR, they were increased to 150 minutes at the
start of 2009; they were quietly reduced to the current limits in
September 2009 and the following tweaks were made in January 2010:
* * * * * * *M-F = 1900 *M-F 1900 + Sat *Sun
Z1/Z2 * * * * * * * * 90 * * * * * * * 100 *110
Z1-Z2/Z2-Z3 * * * * * 90 * * * * * * * 100 *110

The following will happen in 2011:
(Bottom ofhttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14872.aspx#jan2011)

* * * * * * *M-F = 1900 *M-F 1900 + Sat *Sun
Z1/Z2/Z2-Z3 * * * * * 90 * * * * * * * 100 *110
Z1-Z2 * * * * * * * *100 * * * * * * * 110 *120
Z1-Z3/Z1-Z4 * * * * *110 * * * * * * * 125 *135

i.e. Z1-Z2 gets a 3 zone limit and Z1-Z3 and Z1-Z4 both get a 5 zone
limit.

I suppose, I should show that:
Zones * * * *M-F = 1900 *M-F 1900 + Sat *Sun
1 * * * * * * * * * * 70 * * * * * * * *80 * 85
2 * * * * * * * * * * 80 * * * * * * * *90 *100
3 * * * * * * * * * * 90 * * * * * * * 100 *110
4 * * * * * * * * * *100 * * * * * * * 110 *120
5 * * * * * * * * * *110 * * * * * * * 125 *135

I have found these limits bite when OSI is used to fuse journeys.
The extra time should eliminate such overcharging for me. (Oyster
automatically refunds for registered cards.)

It won't address a short stay at Finsbury Park where each validator
heuristically distinguishes entry and exit in the absence of gatelines.
1) Touch in at any station - e.g. Manor House;
2) Touch out at Finsbury Park;
3) A touch again at Finsbury Park WITHIN 30 MINUTES is a touch out;
4) Touch out at the same station as 1). i.e. Manor House.

ISTR you are charged for an unfinished journey and an unstarted journey.
Oyster has no automatic mechanism to recognise this.

OTOH, Manor House via Finsbury Park to any other station, e.g. Arsenal,
is charged correctly.

This seems to be a FPK peculiarity. I found no problem at Mill Hill
East. I haven't tried at Waterloo on the W&C or at National Rail
stations which don't have gatelines.
--
Walter Briscoe

it sounds as though Tfl don't actaully want you to know how much each
individual PAYG journey costs. It's rather like buying the weekly
shopping at the supermarket. You might know how much the total amount
came to, but how many people honestly know much they paid for each
individual item unless they look at the receipt.

Similarly, a lot of people will not keep a record a each journey they
make. Consequently they won't know if the cap has been applied,
whether it has been applied correctly or whether too much money has
been taken for the journey made.

Using the supermarket analogy again, it is not unknown for an item to
be marked at one price on the shelf, and a different price charged at
the checkout. The supermarket's rather pathetic excuse is that "..we
have over 5,000 lines in this store and we are bound to get a few
wrong..."

Now if you imagine Tfl as a supermarket, there are many journey
possibilities. Given that there are (according to Wikipedia) 270
stations on the tube alone, this gives a total of 72630 single
journeys between two individual stations. How many of these journeys
have been tested to see that the correct amount has been deducted.
OK, I know it isn't feasible to check them all, but you should check
one journey for each possible combination of zones.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are a few wrongly programmed
journeys, and it also wouldn't surprise me if Tfl usedthe same excuse
as the supermarkets.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 07:25:59 -0800 (PST)
Paul wrote:
shopping at the supermarket. You might know how much the total amount
came to, but how many people honestly know much they paid for each
individual item unless they look at the receipt.

You only have to look at the gate when you touch out. All the new ones will
tell you how much your journey cost and how much you have left.

B2003

In article ,
Walter Briscoe wrote:
It won't address a short stay at Finsbury Park where each validator
heuristically distinguishes entry and exit in the absence of gatelines.
1) Touch in at any station - e.g. Manor House;
2) Touch out at Finsbury Park;
3) A touch again at Finsbury Park WITHIN 30 MINUTES is a touch out;
4) Touch out at the same station as 1). i.e. Manor House.

ISTR you are charged for an unfinished journey and an unstarted journey.
Oyster has no automatic mechanism to recognise this.

OTOH, Manor House via Finsbury Park to any other station, e.g. Arsenal,
is charged correctly.

This seems to be a FPK peculiarity. I found no problem at Mill Hill
East. I haven't tried at Waterloo on the W&C or at National Rail
stations which don't have gatelines.

Are you sure? I thought I'd done this at FPK without mishap, but
maybe I was there longer than 30 minutes. But I think the validators
display 'entry' or 'exit' when you touch, don't they? -- so if you're
watching you'd at least know whether or not it is trying to do the
right thing. If attempts to touch in show "exit" I'd probably attempt
to 'seek assistance', as they say...

I thought if you touch twice in a _very_ short period of time it does
what you say -- presumably to avoid problems due to accidental double
touches -- but I didn't realise it did that if you were there for any
substantial period of time...

-roy