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Old December 8th 10, 06:10 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Full 2011 fares now on the TfL website (inc. NR PAYG fares)

The full list of fares for 2011 are now available in all their glory on the
TfL website:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/default.aspx

The single fare finder is now available in 2011 flavour too:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/farefinder/next/

There's a summary of the changes he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/17538.aspx

The "Off-peak fares during the evening peak" (i.e. 'contraflow' off-peak
fares for Tube journeys into z1 in the evening) has of course already been
trumpeted, but just to note that it does only apply to the TfL tariff - i.e.
Tube, DLR and those NR lines which are on the TfL fare scale (see below) -
it doesn't apply to (all the other) NR lines. Of course TfL and the Mayor
don't have the power to unilaterally decide fares for NR services, and
furthermore the NR PAYG fares fall under the rail fares regulatory regime,
so arranging for the NR tariff to also offer 'contraflow' fares into z1
would be far from simple! (Perhaps the TOCs might push for this in the
future - though I dare say it's not the kind of thing they tend to get very
dynamic about.)

~ ~ ~

I also note that maximum journey times "are increasing for journeys in Zones
1-4", which suggests that they were perhaps a bit too tight for
slow-coaches, or perhaps more likely the limit could be hit when there were
service disruptions - anyhow, good to know that these things are not set in
stone and can and do change in response to feedback and monitoring.

~ ~ ~

Lastly, I notice that on the 'National Rail' page the information about
which PAYG tariff (or fare scale) applies - NR or TfL - when travelling on
NR lines is now presented in a rather clearer manner, with a link to a new
map which shows lines in green (NR tariff) or red (TfL tariff), instead of a
link to a list of NR lines that accepted PAYG before 2010 (said link now
appears to be dead too) - compare and contrast...

2010: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/17352.aspx

2011: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx

It's interesting that the 'legacy' (pre-2010) TfL tariff on NR lines
arrangement continue to exist (for PAYG) - it makes sense where an NR line
shadows an LU one and there's interavailability with LU fares (e.g.
Upminster-Fenchurch St), or where much of the NR route is enmeshed with LU
line(s) (e.g. Chiltern), but its continued existence on the GWML / FGW route
makes me wonder if the individual TOCs in question committed to a contract
with TfL in respect of PAYG acceptance which ties them in to the TfL tariff
for a number of years (bearing in mind these individual deals were struck
before the pan-London PAYG on NR deal was agreed between all the London TOCs
and TfL).

With regards to the NR tariff versus the TfL tariff, when considering
journeys into zone 1 the NR tariff is cheaper for shorter journeys (fewer
zones), whilst the TfL tariff is cheaper for longer journeys (more zones) -
actually they're almost level at zones 1-4 and 1-5 (though NR is still
marginally cheaper - it's only a z1-6 journey that's cheaper with the TfL
tariff). However when looking at non-zone 1 journeys, the TfL tariff is
seemingly always cheaper than the NR tariff (apart from single zone journeys
which off-peak are the same at 1.30, and peak there's a ten pence
difference - 1.50 NR, 1.40 TfL).

Note my quick and dirty comparison above doesn't encompass NR+TfL 'through
fares', and only looks at zones 1-6 (and it's the 2011 fares I'm looking
at).

~ ~ ~

Oh, and whilst I certainly wasn't looking for any I stumbled across one
apparent mistake already!


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Old December 9th 10, 07:49 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Full 2011 fares now on the TfL website (inc. NR PAYG fares)

On Dec 8, 6:10*pm, "Mizter T" wrote:
The full list of fares for 2011 are now available in all their glory on the
TfL website:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/default.aspx

The single fare finder is now available in 2011 flavour too:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/farefinder/next/

There's a summary of the changes he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/17538.aspx

The "Off-peak fares during the evening peak" (i.e. 'contraflow' off-peak
fares for Tube journeys into z1 in the evening) has of course already been
trumpeted, but just to note that it does only apply to the TfL tariff - i..e.
Tube, DLR and those NR lines which are on the TfL fare scale (see below) -
it doesn't apply to (all the other) NR lines. Of course TfL and the Mayor
don't have the power to unilaterally decide fares for NR services, and
furthermore the NR PAYG fares fall under the rail fares regulatory regime,
so arranging for the NR tariff to also offer 'contraflow' fares into z1
would be far from simple! (Perhaps the TOCs might push for this in the
future - though I dare say it's not the kind of thing they tend to get very
dynamic about.)

~ ~ ~

I also note that maximum journey times "are increasing for journeys in Zones
1-4", which suggests that they were perhaps a bit too tight for
slow-coaches, or perhaps more likely the limit could be hit when there were
service disruptions - anyhow, good to know that these things are not set in
stone and can and do change in response to feedback and monitoring.

~ ~ ~

Lastly, I notice that on the 'National Rail' page the information about
which PAYG tariff (or fare scale) applies - NR or TfL - when travelling on
NR lines is now presented in a rather clearer manner, with a link to a new
map which shows lines in green (NR tariff) or red (TfL tariff), instead of a
link to a list of NR lines that accepted PAYG before 2010 (said link now
appears to be dead too) - compare and contrast...

2010: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/17352.aspx

2011: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx

It's interesting that the 'legacy' (pre-2010) TfL tariff on NR lines
arrangement continue to exist (for PAYG) - it makes sense where an NR line
shadows an LU one and there's interavailability with LU fares (e.g.
Upminster-Fenchurch St), or where much of the NR route is enmeshed with LU
line(s) (e.g. Chiltern), but its continued existence on the GWML / FGW route
makes me wonder if the individual TOCs in question committed to a contract
with TfL in respect of PAYG acceptance which ties them in to the TfL tariff
for a number of years (bearing in mind these individual deals were struck
before the pan-London PAYG on NR deal was agreed between all the London TOCs
and TfL).

With regards to the NR tariff versus the TfL tariff, when considering
journeys into zone 1 the NR tariff is cheaper for shorter journeys (fewer
zones), whilst the TfL tariff is cheaper for longer journeys (more zones) -
actually they're almost level at zones 1-4 and 1-5 (though NR is still
marginally cheaper - it's only a z1-6 journey that's cheaper with the TfL
tariff). However when looking at non-zone 1 journeys, the TfL tariff is
seemingly always cheaper than the NR tariff (apart from single zone journeys
which off-peak are the same at �1.30, and peak there's a ten pence
difference - �1.50 NR, �1.40 TfL).

Note my quick and dirty comparison above doesn't encompass NR+TfL 'through
fares', and only looks at zones 1-6 (and it's the 2011 fares I'm looking
at).

~ ~ ~

Oh, and whilst I certainly wasn't looking for any I stumbled across one
apparent mistake already!


How typical of Tfl to announce full details of the new year fares
increase before they anonunce details of the service that they will
deign to run over the Christmas holiday period.

I like the paragraph where it says "We're also simplifying Daily price
capping", and then goes on to announce, for example, that the cap for
Zones 1 - 3 is being withdrawn, and the cap for Zones 1- 4 is being
applied instead, Therefore, someone who only travels in Zones 1 - 3
will have to make extra journeys before the price cap is applied.
How about if they told the truth - instead of "We're also simplifying
Daily price capping", they said "We're also introducing a back door
fares increase"
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Old December 9th 10, 08:46 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Full 2011 fares now on the TfL website (inc. NR PAYG fares)

In message
, at
23:49:48 on Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Paul remarked:
How about if they told the truth - instead of "We're also simplifying
Daily price capping", they said "We're also introducing a back door
fares increase"


After the "simplifying" of National Rail fares, now this one, I think we
can now take it for granted that the two concepts go hand in hand.

--
Roland Perry
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Old December 9th 10, 01:53 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 392
Default Full 2011 fares now on the TfL website (inc. NR PAYG fares)

In message of Wed, 8 Dec 2010
18:10:50 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes
The full list of fares for 2011 are now available in all their glory on the
TfL website:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/default.aspx

The single fare finder is now available in 2011 flavour too:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/farefinder/next/

There's a summary of the changes he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/17538.aspx


[snip]

I also note that maximum journey times "are increasing for journeys in Zones
1-4", which suggests that they were perhaps a bit too tight for
slow-coaches, or perhaps more likely the limit could be hit when there were
service disruptions - anyhow, good to know that these things are not set in
stone and can and do change in response to feedback and monitoring.



They change regularly. ISTR, they were increased to 150 minutes at the
start of 2009; they were quietly reduced to the current limits in
September 2009 and the following tweaks were made in January 2010:
M-F = 1900 M-F 1900 + Sat Sun
Z1/Z2 90 100 110
Z1-Z2/Z2-Z3 90 100 110

The following will happen in 2011:
(Bottom of http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14872.aspx#jan2011)

M-F = 1900 M-F 1900 + Sat Sun
Z1/Z2/Z2-Z3 90 100 110
Z1-Z2 100 110 120
Z1-Z3/Z1-Z4 110 125 135

i.e. Z1-Z2 gets a 3 zone limit and Z1-Z3 and Z1-Z4 both get a 5 zone
limit.

I suppose, I should show that:
Zones M-F = 1900 M-F 1900 + Sat Sun
1 70 80 85
2 80 90 100
3 90 100 110
4 100 110 120
5 110 125 135

I have found these limits bite when OSI is used to fuse journeys.
The extra time should eliminate such overcharging for me. (Oyster
automatically refunds for registered cards.)

It won't address a short stay at Finsbury Park where each validator
heuristically distinguishes entry and exit in the absence of gatelines.
1) Touch in at any station - e.g. Manor House;
2) Touch out at Finsbury Park;
3) A touch again at Finsbury Park WITHIN 30 MINUTES is a touch out;
4) Touch out at the same station as 1). i.e. Manor House.

ISTR you are charged for an unfinished journey and an unstarted journey.
Oyster has no automatic mechanism to recognise this.

OTOH, Manor House via Finsbury Park to any other station, e.g. Arsenal,
is charged correctly.

This seems to be a FPK peculiarity. I found no problem at Mill Hill
East. I haven't tried at Waterloo on the W&C or at National Rail
stations which don't have gatelines.
--
Walter Briscoe
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Old December 9th 10, 03:25 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Full 2011 fares now on the TfL website (inc. NR PAYG fares)

On Dec 9, 1:53*pm, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message of Wed, 8 Dec 2010
18:10:50 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes

The full list of fares for 2011 are now available in all their glory on the
TfL website:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/default.aspx


The single fare finder is now available in 2011 flavour too:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/farefinder/next/


There's a summary of the changes he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/17538.aspx


[snip]

I also note that maximum journey times "are increasing for journeys in Zones
1-4", which suggests that they were perhaps a bit too tight for
slow-coaches, or perhaps more likely the limit could be hit when there were
service disruptions - anyhow, good to know that these things are not set in
stone and can and do change in response to feedback and monitoring.


They change regularly. ISTR, they were increased to 150 minutes at the
start of 2009; they were quietly reduced to the current limits in
September 2009 and the following tweaks were made in January 2010:
* * * * * * *M-F = 1900 *M-F 1900 + Sat *Sun
Z1/Z2 * * * * * * * * 90 * * * * * * * 100 *110
Z1-Z2/Z2-Z3 * * * * * 90 * * * * * * * 100 *110

The following will happen in 2011:
(Bottom ofhttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14872.aspx#jan2011)

* * * * * * *M-F = 1900 *M-F 1900 + Sat *Sun
Z1/Z2/Z2-Z3 * * * * * 90 * * * * * * * 100 *110
Z1-Z2 * * * * * * * *100 * * * * * * * 110 *120
Z1-Z3/Z1-Z4 * * * * *110 * * * * * * * 125 *135

i.e. Z1-Z2 gets a 3 zone limit and Z1-Z3 and Z1-Z4 both get a 5 zone
limit.

I suppose, I should show that:
Zones * * * *M-F = 1900 *M-F 1900 + Sat *Sun
1 * * * * * * * * * * 70 * * * * * * * *80 * 85
2 * * * * * * * * * * 80 * * * * * * * *90 *100
3 * * * * * * * * * * 90 * * * * * * * 100 *110
4 * * * * * * * * * *100 * * * * * * * 110 *120
5 * * * * * * * * * *110 * * * * * * * 125 *135

I have found these limits bite when OSI is used to fuse journeys.
The extra time should eliminate such overcharging for me. (Oyster
automatically refunds for registered cards.)

It won't address a short stay at Finsbury Park where each validator
heuristically distinguishes entry and exit in the absence of gatelines.
1) Touch in at any station - e.g. Manor House;
2) Touch out at Finsbury Park;
3) A touch again at Finsbury Park WITHIN 30 MINUTES is a touch out;
4) Touch out at the same station as 1). i.e. Manor House.

ISTR you are charged for an unfinished journey and an unstarted journey.
Oyster has no automatic mechanism to recognise this.

OTOH, Manor House via Finsbury Park to any other station, e.g. Arsenal,
is charged correctly.

This seems to be a FPK peculiarity. I found no problem at Mill Hill
East. I haven't tried at Waterloo on the W&C or at National Rail
stations which don't have gatelines.
--
Walter Briscoe


it sounds as though Tfl don't actaully want you to know how much each
individual PAYG journey costs. It's rather like buying the weekly
shopping at the supermarket. You might know how much the total amount
came to, but how many people honestly know much they paid for each
individual item unless they look at the receipt.

Similarly, a lot of people will not keep a record a each journey they
make. Consequently they won't know if the cap has been applied,
whether it has been applied correctly or whether too much money has
been taken for the journey made.

Using the supermarket analogy again, it is not unknown for an item to
be marked at one price on the shelf, and a different price charged at
the checkout. The supermarket's rather pathetic excuse is that "..we
have over 5,000 lines in this store and we are bound to get a few
wrong..."

Now if you imagine Tfl as a supermarket, there are many journey
possibilities. Given that there are (according to Wikipedia) 270
stations on the tube alone, this gives a total of 72630 single
journeys between two individual stations. How many of these journeys
have been tested to see that the correct amount has been deducted.
OK, I know it isn't feasible to check them all, but you should check
one journey for each possible combination of zones.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are a few wrongly programmed
journeys, and it also wouldn't surprise me if Tfl usedthe same excuse
as the supermarkets.


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Old December 9th 10, 03:32 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Full 2011 fares now on the TfL website (inc. NR PAYG fares)

On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 07:25:59 -0800 (PST)
Paul wrote:
shopping at the supermarket. You might know how much the total amount
came to, but how many people honestly know much they paid for each
individual item unless they look at the receipt.


You only have to look at the gate when you touch out. All the new ones will
tell you how much your journey cost and how much you have left.

B2003


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Old December 9th 10, 10:29 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Full 2011 fares now on the TfL website (inc. NR PAYG fares)

In article ,
Walter Briscoe wrote:
It won't address a short stay at Finsbury Park where each validator
heuristically distinguishes entry and exit in the absence of gatelines.
1) Touch in at any station - e.g. Manor House;
2) Touch out at Finsbury Park;
3) A touch again at Finsbury Park WITHIN 30 MINUTES is a touch out;
4) Touch out at the same station as 1). i.e. Manor House.

ISTR you are charged for an unfinished journey and an unstarted journey.
Oyster has no automatic mechanism to recognise this.

OTOH, Manor House via Finsbury Park to any other station, e.g. Arsenal,
is charged correctly.

This seems to be a FPK peculiarity. I found no problem at Mill Hill
East. I haven't tried at Waterloo on the W&C or at National Rail
stations which don't have gatelines.


Are you sure? I thought I'd done this at FPK without mishap, but
maybe I was there longer than 30 minutes. But I think the validators
display 'entry' or 'exit' when you touch, don't they? -- so if you're
watching you'd at least know whether or not it is trying to do the
right thing. If attempts to touch in show "exit" I'd probably attempt
to 'seek assistance', as they say...

I thought if you touch twice in a _very_ short period of time it does
what you say -- presumably to avoid problems due to accidental double
touches -- but I didn't realise it did that if you were there for any
substantial period of time...

-roy


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