"Cast_Iron" wrote in message
...
"Edward Cowling" wrote in message
...

I still consider the bus as drop in
centres on wheels and would rather
walk 5 miles in the rain than use one.

What is the overall perception of them
out there in Internet land ??

Why do so many social inadequates insist on demonstrating the fact?

His point is valid for certain neighbourhoods, perhaps 50% or so of London's
area. In the rest of London (including Central London) bus use is definitely
not the province of the underclass.

I've never been threatened or accosted on a bus in my life, so Edward should
stop worrying and help "us" to outnumber "them" in more and more parts of
London.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:11:44 -0000, "Edward Cowling"
wrote:

Someone said to me the other day that if nothing
else Ken Livingstone had made buses an acceptable
way to travel.

Everyone uses buses these days, they said.

ISTR that some recent statistics said the proportion of Londoners who
don't use buses has fallen from 28% to 21%. Sounds like a decent
improvement to me.

Do they ? I still consider the bus as drop in
centres on wheels and would rather walk 5 miles
in the rain than use one.

What a patronising and insulting remark. I'm surprised you don't possess
a chauffeur driven limousine.

What is the overall perception of them out there
in Internet land ??

I've used buses for years whether up in the North East or down here in
London. They helped me put together my geography of London far better
than the Tube ever did.

I use them all the time and they are definitely more convenient than the
Tube for certain key corridors in Central London and are a necessity for
trips beyond Zone 2 where the rail network cannot cover every journey
option efficiently.

While I'm not Ken's biggest fan I have changed my mind about his bus
policy. I think the overall service level and quality have improved
markedly and there is no doubt that this (and cheaper fares) have
attracted passengers. I remain a bit concerned about the projected costs
of running the network as a whole as I wonder about the efficiency that
is being delivered.

Paradoxically I am also concerned that a lot of planned improvements in
the suburbs are being quietly axed to try to contain the budget
increases. While I understand the Central London emphasis to date (C
Charge) I think it has possibly gone too far and money really needs to
be spent in the suburbs because many routes really need more buses and
capacity on them now.

My final concern is whether we've moved from innovation into gimmicks.
Artics have a place but the recent announcements about them replacing
routemasters (normal double decks on the 25) on the 12, 25 and 73 make
me wonder whether TfL have latched onto one solution for many problems.
These routes are very busy, carry people over long distances and I think
artics will force more people to stand for far longer. This is a
reduction in quality in my view and I think it will prove to be a
mistake. I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and changes to
publicity provision that I think are half baked and badly executed. The
concepts sound fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Edward Cowling wrote:
Someone said to me the other day that if nothing
else Ken Livingstone had made buses an acceptable
way to travel.

Everyone uses buses these days, they said.

Do they ? I still consider the bus as drop in
centres on wheels and would rather walk 5 miles
in the rain than use one.

What is the overall perception of them out there
in Internet land ??

They stink - literally! I have health and mobility problems and often have
to visit the Royal London Hospital in Whitechapel. If I use my car the
journey time from home (on the Isle of Dogs) is an average of 7 minutes and,
as a local resident with a parking permit, I can park in nearby residents'
bays for free or use my Blue Badge on a yellow line. If I use the bus the
journey time can increase to up to 2 hours (one way!). The average wait for
a D7 to Mile End is about half an hour (scheduled every ten minutes). I
cannot use the underground as I can't manage the stairs at Mile End or
Whitechapel stations so I have to use the 25 bus. The buses are so crowded
(NOT rush hours) that several go by before I can get on one and even then
the wait can be up to an hour between buses - only the one route between Bow
and Aldgate on the main A11 into the City! When I do get on one there are
no seats available and I get crushed with people swearing at me because my
walking stick's in their way!

The other week a seat (reserved for disabled) became available next to where
I was standing. As I went to sit I was shoved out of the way and nearly
pushed over by a healthy young woman who pretended not to speak English -
until she forgot herself and started talking to her standing friend in loud
Cockney English.

While waiting at stops (and sometimes on the bus itself) I get accosted by
(usually Scottish) gentlemen ? saying "Gi'ussa quid mister" or similar,
accompanied by the wafting stench of stale booze and dirt.

The journey itself (Mile End to Whitechapel) is only between a mile and a
mile and a half yet, because of traffic, can take half an hour. Like I said
previously, I can do it in 5-7 minutes driving using faster alternative
roads to the bus routes.

While this impossible situation exists there is NO WAY I'm going to stop
using my car.
--
Phil ,,,^.".^,,,


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 18/12/2003

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:17:21 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

My final concern is whether we've moved from innovation into gimmicks.
Artics have a place but the recent announcements about them replacing
routemasters (normal double decks on the 25) on the 12, 25 and 73 make
me wonder whether TfL have latched onto one solution for many problems.
These routes are very busy, carry people over long distances and I think
artics will force more people to stand for far longer. This is a
reduction in quality in my view and I think it will prove to be a
mistake. I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and changes to
publicity provision that I think are half baked and badly executed. The
concepts sound fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.

The 73 goes down Oxford Street, right? I think the bendies would be
proposed for that route on that basis - load a lot of people very
quickly for a short distance. This doesn't help those who will have
to stand for long distances in the outer parts of the route, but I'm
personally really surprised this route hasn't gone bendy *much*
earlier - indeed, perhaps, as one of the first.

Apart from the jumping on and off between stops, I find Routemasters
perform quite poorly on *very* busy routes such as these, certainly
now pay before you board has been implemented. They're cramped, do
not permit standing for those who wish to unless the bus is full (and
when it is, shoving past people is difficult) and have only one
entrance/exit which will require flows in both directions from both
sides. Two-doored deckers move people quicker at the stops, and
bendies yet faster.

I'm in two minds about totally cashless operation; it'd make more
sense to have all-door boarding with payment at the driver allowed for
those without tickets on the outer reaches of these routes. Oh, and
those ticket machines are appallingly unintuitive[1], and need new
software now.

[1] They are similar to pay-and-display parking machines, with which
people are familiar. *Why*, given that change is not given and
multiple purchases not possible, do you select the ticket first and
then pay? Most parking machines work the other way around. You
should also be able to buy two bus singles for a gbp2 coin, which you
ludicrously cannot at present.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
is a valid email address, but is sent to /dev/null.
Try my first name at the above domain instead if you want to e-mail me.

I live 15 minutes walk from the nearest tube station. If I get a bus for 15
minutes, I can be in the City, Westminster, or Covent Garden. Seems pretty
acceptable to me...

Jonn

"Edward Cowling" wrote in message
...
Someone said to me the other day that if nothing
else Ken Livingstone had made buses an acceptable
way to travel.

Everyone uses buses these days, they said.

Do they ? I still consider the bus as drop in
centres on wheels and would rather walk 5 miles
in the rain than use one.

What is the overall perception of them out there
in Internet land ??


--
Edward Cowling - London - UK

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:36:01 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:17:21 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

My final concern is whether we've moved from innovation into gimmicks.
Artics have a place but the recent announcements about them replacing
routemasters (normal double decks on the 25) on the 12, 25 and 73 make
me wonder whether TfL have latched onto one solution for many problems.
These routes are very busy, carry people over long distances and I think
artics will force more people to stand for far longer. This is a
reduction in quality in my view and I think it will prove to be a
mistake. I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and changes to
publicity provision that I think are half baked and badly executed. The
concepts sound fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.

The 73 goes down Oxford Street, right? I think the bendies would be
proposed for that route on that basis - load a lot of people very
quickly for a short distance. This doesn't help those who will have
to stand for long distances in the outer parts of the route, but I'm
personally really surprised this route hasn't gone bendy *much*
earlier - indeed, perhaps, as one of the first.

But one of the big problems with artics is that it is impossible to get
them onto stops in a straight line. Therefore the back sticks out
preventing the passage of other vehicles - especially buses. On Oxford
St there are so many traffic islands that I can see one or two artics
that are badly parked while at stops bringing the whole street to a
halt. They are also twice as long as a normal bus which will simply
exacerbate the already chronic congestion in Oxford St and at Oxford
Circus where routes 12 and 25 will stand.

The other point you miss about route 73 is the extremely busy section
via Stoke Newington, Newington Green and Islington. This area is poorly
served by the Tube and therefore has very high bus demand. You cannot
get on 73s currently. I have great doubts as to whether artics where
more people will have to stand in crush conditions represent an
improvement in quality compared to a Routemaster.

Apart from the jumping on and off between stops, I find Routemasters
perform quite poorly on *very* busy routes such as these, certainly
now pay before you board has been implemented. They're cramped, do
not permit standing for those who wish to unless the bus is full (and
when it is, shoving past people is difficult) and have only one
entrance/exit which will require flows in both directions from both
sides. Two-doored deckers move people quicker at the stops, and
bendies yet faster.

But the point surely is that sufficient buses should be provided to meet
the demand so that standing, pushing past people etc is not an issue.
While I recognise some of your remarks about Routemasters I experience
far more instances of severe congestion on opo buses because there is no
one to manage where people sit, enforce the standing capacity rules and
also to make sure people get off before others get on. Many of these
issues are to do with passenger safety and it is demonstrably clear that
conditions become quite unacceptable on OPO buses because the driver
cannot or will not enforce the rules; in fact on an artic I do not
believe it is possible.

I'm in two minds about totally cashless operation; it'd make more
sense to have all-door boarding with payment at the driver allowed for
those without tickets on the outer reaches of these routes. Oh, and
those ticket machines are appallingly unintuitive[1], and need new
software now.

As I discovered when a lady from Newcastle was having grave problems
trying to purchase a ticket for the 507 on Horseferry Rd. I have to say
though that she had not read the instructions which I pointed out to
her. I appreciate people use intuition when using "familiar" machines
but all the cashless machines do have instructions on them!

My main observation about these machines is that they are cheap and
therefore lacking in functionality and sophistication. I don't believe
they are up to the job.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

Artics have a place but the recent announcements about them replacing
routemasters (normal double decks on the 25) on the 12, 25 and 73 make

You you poing me to this announcment about 12's Thanks

"Edward Cowling" wrote in message
...
Someone said to me the other day that if nothing
else Ken Livingstone had made buses an acceptable
way to travel.

Everyone uses buses these days, they said.

Do they ? I still consider the bus as drop in
centres on wheels and would rather walk 5 miles
in the rain than use one.

Dirty, smelly, noisy. And that's just the people who use them !!!!!!

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:25:26 -0000, "Redonda"
wrote:

I
cannot use the underground as I can't manage the stairs at Mile End or
Whitechapel stations so I have to use the 25 bus. The buses are so crowded
(NOT rush hours) that several go by before I can get on one and even then
the wait can be up to an hour between buses - only the one route between Bow
and Aldgate on the main A11 into the City! When I do get on one there are
no seats available and I get crushed with people swearing at me because my
walking stick's in their way!
Well, you'll be glad to hear that Route 25 will receive articulated
buses in 2004 - which should help solve the crowding problems....


Rob.

--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and
changes to publicity provision that I think are half
baked and badly executed. The concepts sound
fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.

Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes