On 12/12/2012 21:43, Mizter T wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027

The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and
voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no
capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes
(Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR.

I think the previous thread contains a number of misconceptions as to
how the system will work - both immediately and when it's rolled out
fully - so if I get a mo I'll try and return to them. (Well, I should
add that's *my* understanding as to how the system will work - which may
be no understanding at all. In particular the notion that a PIN may need
to be entered on the bus as is possible with other contactless
transactions is rather far of the mark, because AIUI public transport /
transit payments using contactless aka payWave cards are a rather
different beast to regular contactless payments in retailers etc.)

Re the end of original subject line - it read "(12/12/12)" when it
should of course have read "(13/12/12)".

On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:43:45 +0000, Mizter T
wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027

The timescale of this was what I asked about just two weeks ago, and
voila it's here - not the full version by any means, as they'll be no
capping initially, and it'll be some while longer before other TfL modes
(Tube, DLR, LO etc) accept it, with no word yet on NR.

I think the previous thread contains a number of misconceptions as to
how the system will work - both immediately and when it's rolled out
fully - so if I get a mo I'll try and return to them. (Well, I should
add that's *my* understanding as to how the system will work - which may
be no understanding at all. In particular the notion that a PIN may need
to be entered on the bus as is possible with other contactless
transactions is rather far of the mark, because AIUI public transport /
transit payments using contactless aka payWave cards are a rather
different beast to regular contactless payments in retailers etc.)



Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards?
Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you
just show your card in the same way as Oyster.

In message , at 07:44:36 on
Fri, 14 Dec 2012, David remarked:

Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards?

I think they may store something, in order to trigger the "time to ask
for a PIN" routine (for regular transactions).

Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you
just show your card in the same way as Oyster.

Do they attempt to read it?

One possible mode would be for the inspector to download a "recent
charges" history from the *bus* when he gets on, and checks the numbers
in question against any paywave cards he's offered.
--
Roland Perry

On 14/12/2012 10:57, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 07:44:36 +0000, David wrote:

Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards?
Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you
just show your card in the same way as Oyster.

My guess would be that the contactless chip is written to with basic
txn info when successfully presented to the bus reader.


My understanding is that while 'banking information' is written back to
the card by the reader (transaction counts, cumulative transaction value
since last online PIN confirmation, etc), there is nothing on the card
that is 'transport application' related. So no capping can be done (for
example) on the card.

Future systems may take the transaction record from the bus's ticket
machine(ETM) or the Underground's gates, and then process them in the
back office to determine the total amount to charge. So the 'taps' of
the card on the ETM and gate are really just "I am here" events. It may
be that the transaction with the card is only for a nominal amount - one
of Visa / MasterCard allows a zero-value transaction, but I can't
remember which. There is a completely different transaction model for
transit / tranport use compared with 'normal' retail.

There is a new generation of contactless bank cards coming along which
will contain 'transit sectors', allowing the transit / transport
application to record data on the card. But I have absolutely no idea
how different trasnport operators and schemes might share this data area.

Hope that helps

Kevin

In message , at 11:18:02 on Fri, 14 Dec
2012, Kevin Ayton remarked:

There is a new generation of contactless bank cards coming along which
will contain 'transit sectors', allowing the transit / transport
application to record data on the card. But I have absolutely no idea
how different trasnport operators and schemes might share this data area.

The "Transport Application" would presumably be owned by the transport
authority (or possibly a clearing house) and only the owner would have
access.

So there might perhaps be a "TfL Transport Application" and later a
"Stagecoach Transport Application", or possibly a less useful "SWT
Trains Transport Application", or a more useful "ATOC Transport
Application".

What I'm not familiar with (and similarly for ITSO) is how many such
applications might be able to co-exist on one card.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:57:09 on
Fri, 14 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
Do contactless credit cards store the journey like Oyster cards?
Blub from TfL says that if an inspector gets on to check tickets, you
just show your card in the same way as Oyster.

My guess would be that the contactless chip is written to with basic
txn info when successfully presented to the bus reader.

VISA say "Only minimal account and information is stored on a Visa
payWave card, which is no more than traditional magnetic stripe cards or
contact chip cards".

On the other hand, a Smartcard newsletter says: "Retailers will be able
to use data stored inside Visa payWave payment card to deliver targeted
messages at the point of sale. For example, a coffee chain can recognize
an infrequent customer that has not been to the chain in over 30 days,
and instantly print an offer at the bottom of the card receipt,
encouraging the customer to return soon."

Which implies that an almost unlimited amount of historic transaction
information is sent with every wave. Which doesn't seem very practical
(and how/when is the data for the latest transaction added to the card,
that implies a 2-way data flow).

I can't see any indication in a 200+ page technical spec I have for
payWave that anything is written back to the card, and the flow chart
for processing an EMV card suggests that the card can be removed from
the RF field before the terminal has done any of its authentication
activity - so at that stage it's unknown whether the transaction
succeeded or not.

There is, however, a "Transaction counter" on the card, although
updating it is optional.

I've asked about this on another specialist list and will report back if
we can nail this down at all.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:37:03 on Fri, 14 Dec
2012, Roland Perry remarked:

I've asked about this on another specialist list and will report back
if we can nail this down at all.

A question comes back: "when you swipe the Paywave card, does the
terminal on the bus give you a receipt"? (A small thermal printed
thing I suppose).

Oyster cards don't, as we all know.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 11:37:03 on Fri, 14 Dec
2012, Roland Perry remarked:

I've asked about this on another specialist list and will report back if
we can nail this down at all.

A question comes back: "when you swipe the Paywave card, does the terminal
on the bus give you a receipt"? (A small thermal printed
thing I suppose).

Oyster cards don't, as we all know.

OOI what do national twirly passes do on London buses?

Out in the sticks pax are given paper receipts, but I guess that's because
they aren't flat fare [1] and there needs to be some proof that the driver
has "claimed" the correct fare.

tim

[1] is there anywhere else in the county that runs a flat fare system across
their network?

In message , at 19:33:07 on Fri, 14
Dec 2012, tim..... remarked:
[1] is there anywhere else in the county that runs a flat fare system
across their network?

Nottingham City Transport is almost flat-fare. £1.70 single and £3.40
for an all-day ticket.

But there are a few wrinkles, like group tickets that are also cheaper
during school holidays, and the single fare for a night bus is £3. And
they've recently invented an "Inner Zone" (approx 3 mile square) with a
£2 day-return.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 19:33:07 -0000, "tim....."
wrote:

OOI what do national twirly passes do on London buses?

As already mentioned, there's no ticket, and there won't be once they
are read by the machine either.

Out in the sticks pax are given paper receipts, but I guess that's because
they aren't flat fare [1] and there needs to be some proof that the driver
has "claimed" the correct fare.

Only in some areas -- many that used to issue tickets have stopped.
They generally *are* flat fare, the local authority paying a fixed
amount per use.

[1] is there anywhere else in the county that runs a flat fare system across
their network?

Brighton and Hove is one.

Richard.