On 17/12/2012 09:06, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 08:15:09 on Mon, 17 Dec
2012, Roland Perry remarked:
In the mean time they seem to be over-selling the very few aspects
that have been implemented on the buses: viz it doesn't work for
non-UK cards, and it probably doesn't work for prepay cards or those
associated with an under-18 bank account.

For completeness, it's now been drawn to my attention that the buses
also don't [yet] accept Orange's "Quick Tap" NFC payment service, which
is in effect a pre-paid Barclaycard[1].

[1] Which like the plastic is branded Paypass, rather than Paywave.

PayPass is Mastercard's brand, payWave is Visa's - both are for
contactless payments.

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
14:46:18 on Mon, 17 Dec 2012, remarked:
It needs fixing such that if you over-run the timeout the next touch
in, if it is at a station that is a possible part of an OSI, closes
the previous journey and opens a new one.

Unfortunately it has to close the previous touch in/out. That's why
it's non trivial to solve. But it can't be impossible

The simplest suggestion, which I mentioned long ago, would be to either
add a facility to the ticket machines to "close my journey NOW", or
simpler (but more expensive) have a "close my journey NOW" validator
somewhere on the concourse.

I see no reason why the concept of OSI needs to be such a secret and
you could have dumbed-down signs saying something like:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure
you are charged the correct fare".

If you wanted the general public to avoid the problem.

How would that work with gates, by far the majority touching out method?
Any rational person would expect that exiting by a gate would close a
journey.

That's what the signs are supposed to dispel, you'd touch them after
the gate, but regulars would be drip-fed the information that it only
mattered if you were likely to be re-entering the system soon after.

If you find out only months later that it didn't TfL say "stuff you".

TfL seem to be moving into a more "online" mode - for example is the
online 'statement' for Paywave the only one you'll be able to get?

[TfL must know, but they can't be bothered to tell us].

And the online site [now] flags up unresolved journeys right away.

You can also get statements emailed to you.

Yes, it's more work for the customer, but the only way to break
through the "trust me I'm a gripper" mentality.

Not much use for infrequent travellers either.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 18:50:49
on Mon, 17 Dec 2012, remarked:
TfL seem to be moving into a more "online" mode - for example is the
online 'statement' for Paywave the only one you'll be able to get?

[TfL must know, but they can't be bothered to tell us].

And the online site [now] flags up unresolved journeys right away.

You can also get statements emailed to you.

Yes, it's more work for the customer, but the only way to break
through the "trust me I'm a gripper" mentality.

Not much use for infrequent travellers either.

An infrequent user (like infrequent users of other utilities) simply has
to trust the supplier to get their sums right, and also accept they
might not be using the system most cost-efficiently.

When did you last check your international phone carrier was still the
cheapest available?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:06:02 on Mon, 17 Dec
2012, Mizter T remarked:
In the mean time they seem to be over-selling the very few aspects
that have been implemented on the buses: viz it doesn't work for
non-UK cards, and it probably doesn't work for prepay cards or those
associated with an under-18 bank account.

For completeness, it's now been drawn to my attention that the buses
also don't [yet] accept Orange's "Quick Tap" NFC payment service, which
is in effect a pre-paid Barclaycard[1].

[1] Which like the plastic is branded Paypass, rather than Paywave.

PayPass is Mastercard's brand, payWave is Visa's - both are for
contactless payments.

Yes, I know. And Amex's is Expresspay.

Paywave seems to have the edge when it comes to a generic term emerging.

(see Hoover).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:04:12 on Mon, 17 Dec
2012, Mizter T remarked:
My understanding is that a (very) small amount of data can be written
to an EMV-standard contactless card - i.e. the card itself can prove
that it has been validated (e.g. where and when).

Validated once in its life, after the very first transaction, or after
every one?

The problem with doing it for every transaction is that the card is
allowed to be removed from the RF field *before* the terminal has even
started its validation sequence.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:26:06 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:06:02 on Mon, 17 Dec
2012, Mizter T remarked:
In the mean time they seem to be over-selling the very few aspects
that have been implemented on the buses: viz it doesn't work for
non-UK cards, and it probably doesn't work for prepay cards or those
associated with an under-18 bank account.

For completeness, it's now been drawn to my attention that the buses
also don't [yet] accept Orange's "Quick Tap" NFC payment service, which
is in effect a pre-paid Barclaycard[1].

[1] Which like the plastic is branded Paypass, rather than Paywave.

PayPass is Mastercard's brand, payWave is Visa's - both are for
contactless payments.

Yes, I know. And Amex's is Expresspay.

Paywave seems to have the edge when it comes to a generic term emerging.

Pick Pockets Prize would be a better term. Giving anyone access to your bank
account without even requiring a PIN to be entered except on first use and
at infrequent random points thereafter. Genius. Fagin himself couldn't have
come up with a more idiotic scheme.

B2003

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:27:52 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:04:12 on Mon, 17 Dec
2012, Mizter T remarked:
My understanding is that a (very) small amount of data can be written
to an EMV-standard contactless card - i.e. the card itself can prove
that it has been validated (e.g. where and when).

Validated once in its life, after the very first transaction, or after
every one?

The problem with doing it for every transaction is that the card is
allowed to be removed from the RF field *before* the terminal has even
started its validation sequence.

In which case the transaction fails. Whats the problem?

B2003

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:46:18 on
Mon, 17 Dec 2012, remarked:
It needs fixing such that if you over-run the timeout the next touch
in, if it is at a station that is a possible part of an OSI, closes
the
previous journey and opens a new one.

Unfortunately it has to close the previous touch in/out. That's why
it's non trivial to solve. But it can't be impossible

The simplest suggestion, which I mentioned long ago, would be to either
add a facility to the ticket machines to "close my journey NOW", or
simpler (but more expensive) have a "close my journey NOW" validator
somewhere on the concourse.

I see no reason why the concept of OSI needs to be such a secret and you
could have dumbed-down signs saying something like:

"Finished your journey? Touch the purple validator to ensure you
are charged the correct fare".

If you wanted the general public to avoid the problem.

How would that work with gates, by far the majority touching out method?
Any
rational person would expect that exiting by a gate would close a journey.

That's what the signs are supposed to dispel, you'd touch them after the
gate, but regulars would be drip-fed the information that it only mattered
if you were likely to be re-entering the system soon after.

If you find out only months later that it didn't TfL say "stuff you".

TfL seem to be moving into a more "online" mode - for example is the
online 'statement' for Paywave the only one you'll be able to get?

[TfL must know, but they can't be bothered to tell us].

And the online site [now] flags up unresolved journeys right away.

You can also get statements emailed to you.

Yes, it's more work for the customer, but the only way to break through
the "trust me I'm a gripper" mentality.

You can only get anything at all if you fully register your card.

Unregister cards show balance remaining and nothing more

(At least that's how it used to be, due to the stupidity of having to have a
secure password for something so trivial, I've forgotten my login and can't
reset it. And I can't start a new account because the card is already
registered to a different one).

tim

In message , at 10:46:32 on Tue, 18 Dec
2012, tim..... remarked:

You can only get anything at all if you fully register your card.

Most people do have their Credit Cards registered though. The ones which
aren't (prepaid) can't be used on the buses anyway.

Unregister cards show balance remaining and nothing more

(At least that's how it used to be, due to the stupidity of having to
have a secure password for something so trivial, I've forgotten my
login and can't reset it. And I can't start a new account because the
card is already registered to a different one).

The Oyster helpline would be able to sort that out for you. I had a
similar issue (afaict was never told the password for my Onepulse card,
but there was an account opened for it).

Expect it to take half an hour though
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:37:27 on Tue, 18 Dec
2012, d remarked:
The problem with doing it for every transaction is that the card is
allowed to be removed from the RF field *before* the terminal has even
started its validation sequence.

In which case the transaction fails. Whats the problem?

But the transaction doesn't fail - that's the normal mode of use.
--
Roland Perry