My wife was coming back from a weekend trip to Birmingham this evening and
discovered a bit late in the day that there were no trains between
Peterborough and Cambridge with substitute buses via March and Ely.

It occurred to me that she could go by train via Hitchin and be timetabled
to arrive in Cambridge one minute later. She was keen on this option because
the last time she went on a substitute bus between Peterborough and
Cambridge the bus driver got lost and only found Cambridge station with the
help of some of the passengers.

So I rang National Rail Enquiries to confirm if her Cambridge- Birmingham
Off-Peak return via Not London was valid via Hitchin. They said not. That
makes no sense to me as no end of Cambridge to East Coast tickets are valid
via Stevenage (and Peterborough).

So I advised her to ask at Peterborough where she was told her ticket was
valid via Hitchin and she was able to complete her journey by train.

The question is why NRE thought otherwise? Can anyone here shed light upon
that?

Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 18:11:31
on Sun, 21 Apr 2013, remarked:
My wife was coming back from a weekend trip to Birmingham this evening and
discovered a bit late in the day that there were no trains between
Peterborough and Cambridge with substitute buses via March and Ely.

Yes, they are fettling up the Ely North junction. And again all next
weekend, and then May for a whole week.

This seems to involve not being able to run trains between Ely and
Cambridge - which might be a result of turning off the power over the
whole stretch from Chesterton to Downham Market, and not having any DMUs
in the FCC fleet. But they are also not running the GA DMUs to Ipswich,
and the GA DMUs they aren't running between Cambridge and Norwich could
easily be turned into a shuttle.

It occurred to me that she could go by train via Hitchin and be timetabled
to arrive in Cambridge one minute later. She was keen on this option because
the last time she went on a substitute bus between Peterborough and
Cambridge the bus driver got lost and only found Cambridge station with the
help of some of the passengers.

It's almost as bad as the ambulance drivers who can't find Addenbrookes.

So I rang National Rail Enquiries to confirm if her Cambridge- Birmingham
Off-Peak return via Not London was valid via Hitchin. They said not. That
makes no sense to me as no end of Cambridge to East Coast tickets are valid
via Stevenage (and Peterborough).

Tickets are generally valid over a wider and wider swathe the longer the
journey is, and they also generally become less particular about how you
travel the bits at each end.

So some ECML tickets will indeed be valid via Hitchin (or Stevenage
which is part of the same station group for routing purposes).

Shorter distance tickets can be available by as little as the direct
route, although just to complicate things it's possible to buy tickets
from Cambridge to Peterborough that are valid via Hitchin (the "not
London" version), but it's roughly twice the price of the "via Ely"
version.

Anyway, Birmingham to Cambridge is valid on the shortest route and
direct trains (in both cases these happen to be via Ely). And also by
Map CN [only - there are often multiple valid maps]. Or additionally via
London if you buy the more expensive ticket.

Map CN is "Central Wales and Northwest to East Anglia via Birmingham"
and the bit we are interested in is the line from Birmingham to Norwich
via Ely, Birmingham to Stansted via Ely and Birmingham to Ipswich via
Ely and Stowmarket.

Unusually for such a distance it almost only mirrors the direct
trains[1], the only wrinkle being that you are permitted to do
Peterborough-Ely-Stowmarket-Cambridge, rather than going via Waterbeach.

So I advised her to ask at Peterborough where she was told her ticket was
valid via Hitchin and she was able to complete her journey by train.

The question is why NRE thought otherwise? Can anyone here shed light upon
that?

The question is "why the person at Peterborough thought otherwise".

It's either because the are misinformed, or because they thought no-one
would care, or because of the bustitution.

Given the extensive closures which are planned, it might be well worth
finding out which of the three it is, for future trips.

[1] And again, quite unusually, shows two very infrequent paths, via the
Syston North Curve and the Ely avoiding loop. It also implies that there
was once a through service from Crewe via Derby and Loughborough to East
Anglia.
--
Roland Perry

On Apr 22, 8:44*am, Roland Perry wrote:

Cambridge the bus driver got lost and only found Cambridge station with the
help of some of the passengers.

It's almost as bad as the ambulance drivers who can't find Addenbrookes.

Last summer, Cambridge bus drivers excelled themselves. There's a
free shuttle bus run between the Coldhams Common campsite and the
Cherry Hinton festival site for the folk festival. On the Thursday
evening, a driver decided to stop at the temporary stop, even though
it isn't a scheduled stop for normal buses, and then take the packed
and standing busload he picked up to the station, for reasons best
know to himself, whereupon he announced he was going no further (or
something like that: he spoke no language known to anyone on the
bus). I shared a taxi with another group of people, which only cost a
fiver each or something, but it was extremely annoying. Apparently,
the same thing happened again the following day. Apparently, picking
up 80-odd people none of whom paid or showed passes at an unmarked
stop hadn't phased them at all.

ian

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
18:11:31 on Sun, 21 Apr 2013, remarked:
My wife was coming back from a weekend trip to Birmingham this evening
and discovered a bit late in the day that there were no trains between
Peterborough and Cambridge with substitute buses via March and Ely.

Yes, they are fettling up the Ely North junction. And again all next
weekend, and then May for a whole week.

Is this the work to remove the single leads there or is this plain old
maintenance work?

This seems to involve not being able to run trains between Ely and
Cambridge - which might be a result of turning off the power over the
whole stretch from Chesterton to Downham Market, and not having any
DMUs in the FCC fleet. But they are also not running the GA DMUs to
Ipswich, and the GA DMUs they aren't running between Cambridge and
Norwich could easily be turned into a shuttle.

Indeed. East Midlands Trains aren't even attempting a Norwich-Thetford
shuttle and have Peterborough-Norwich bustituted all the way.

It occurred to me that she could go by train via Hitchin and be
timetabled to arrive in Cambridge one minute later. She was keen on this
option because the last time she went on a substitute bus between
Peterborough and Cambridge the bus driver got lost and only found
Cambridge station with the help of some of the passengers.

It's almost as bad as the ambulance drivers who can't find
Addenbrookes.

:-)

So I rang National Rail Enquiries to confirm if her Cambridge-Birmingham
Off-Peak return via Not London was valid via Hitchin. They said not.
That makes no sense to me as no end of Cambridge to East Coast tickets
are valid via Stevenage (and Peterborough).

Tickets are generally valid over a wider and wider swathe the longer
the journey is, and they also generally become less particular about
how you travel the bits at each end.

So some ECML tickets will indeed be valid via Hitchin (or Stevenage
which is part of the same station group for routing purposes).

Actually, East Coast have two routings, "via Ely" and "via not London". Only
the latter is valid via Stevenage. The Cambridge-Birmingham off-peak return
is "via not London".

Shorter distance tickets can be available by as little as the direct
route, although just to complicate things it's possible to buy
tickets from Cambridge to Peterborough that are valid via Hitchin
(the "not London" version), but it's roughly twice the price of the
"via Ely" version.

Yes, I spotted that.

Anyway, Birmingham to Cambridge is valid on the shortest route and
direct trains (in both cases these happen to be via Ely). And also by
Map CN [only - there are often multiple valid maps]. Or additionally
via London if you buy the more expensive ticket.

Map CN is "Central Wales and Northwest to East Anglia via Birmingham"
and the bit we are interested in is the line from Birmingham to
Norwich via Ely, Birmingham to Stansted via Ely and Birmingham to
Ipswich via Ely and Stowmarket.

Unusually for such a distance it almost only mirrors the direct
trains[1], the only wrinkle being that you are permitted to do
Peterborough-Ely-Stowmarket-Cambridge, rather than going via
Waterbeach.

That's odd because I put Cambridge-Birmingham New Street via Hitchin into
the East Coast version of Webtis after posting my message here and was
offered the same off-peak return as my wife had. Webtis isn't likely to be
wrong is it? It was the basis on which I later complained to NRE about
giving out misleading information again.

So I advised her to ask at Peterborough where she was told her ticket was
valid via Hitchin and she was able to complete her journey by train.

The question is why NRE thought otherwise? Can anyone here shed light
upon that?

The question is "why the person at Peterborough thought otherwise".

It wasn't just them (she saw an FCC gripper just after leaving PBO) as
mentioned above.

It's either because the are misinformed, or because they thought
no-one would care, or because of the bustitution.

Given the extensive closures which are planned, it might be well
worth finding out which of the three it is, for future trips.

Not so important in future because (unlike yesterday) they appear to be
running Peterborough-Cambridge direct buses as well as via March and Ely,
next weekend anyway. The via March and Ely bus departed 20:28, due Cambridge
22:26. Next week there is a 20:30 direct bus, arriving Cambridge 21:45, well
before the train arrival via Hitchin at 22:27.

[1] And again, quite unusually, shows two very infrequent paths, via
the Syston North Curve and the Ely avoiding loop. It also implies
that there was once a through service from Crewe via Derby and
Loughborough to East Anglia.

There are real routes via Syston North Curve because the East Midlands
trains via Corby use it. So you can change at Melton Mowbray. I was able to
get my cheap Cambridge-Derby tickets earlier this year only by avoiding
Melton Mowbray.

Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 08:18:37
on Mon, 22 Apr 2013, remarked:

Yes, they are fettling up the Ely North junction. And again all next
weekend, and then May for a whole week.

Is this the work to remove the single leads there or is this plain old
maintenance work?

The former I think.

So some ECML tickets will indeed be valid via Hitchin (or Stevenage
which is part of the same station group for routing purposes).

Actually, East Coast have two routings, "via Ely" and "via not London". Only
the latter is valid via Stevenage. The Cambridge-Birmingham off-peak return
is "via not London".

But it's a Cross-Country ticket, not an East Coast one.

I put Cambridge-Birmingham New Street via Hitchin into
the East Coast version of Webtis after posting my message here and was
offered the same off-peak return as my wife had. Webtis isn't likely to be
wrong is it? It was the basis on which I later complained to NRE about
giving out misleading information again.

I get £110.50 single from Webtis, which is the "via London" fare.

I suppose it's a subset of Birmingham-London via Peterborough&Hitchin
plus London-Cambridge via Hitchin.

The question is "why the person at Peterborough thought otherwise".

It wasn't just them (she saw an FCC gripper just after leaving PBO) as
mentioned above.

Many people can give the same story, the relevant questions "which of
the three stories is true.

If, as you suggest above, the ticket was the more expensive "via London"
one, then this entire conversation is at cross purposes.

Please disclose the price of the ticket.

[1] And again, quite unusually, shows two very infrequent paths, via
the Syston North Curve and the Ely avoiding loop. It also implies
that there was once a through service from Crewe via Derby and
Loughborough to East Anglia.

There are real routes via Syston North Curve because the East Midlands
trains via Corby use it.

There's two a day Nottingham/Ely type train that uses the curve
(southbound, early in the morning) and one Spalding-Nottingham late at
night. Much longer established than the very few through Corby ones
(most are south-facing shuttles between Corby and StP).

--
Roland Perry

This seems to involve not being able to run trains between Ely and
Cambridge - which might be a result of turning off the power over the
whole stretch from Chesterton to Downham Market, and not having any DMUs
in the FCC fleet. But they are also not running the GA DMUs to Ipswich,
and the GA DMUs they aren't running between Cambridge and Norwich could
easily be turned into a shuttle.

If it were just the power, wouldn't you be able to take the XC DMUs
from Stansted?

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

In message , at 17:03:29 on Mon, 22 Apr
2013, John Levine remarked:
This seems to involve not being able to run trains between Ely and
Cambridge - which might be a result of turning off the power over the
whole stretch from Chesterton to Downham Market, and not having any DMUs
in the FCC fleet. But they are also not running the GA DMUs to Ipswich,
and the GA DMUs they aren't running between Cambridge and Norwich could
easily be turned into a shuttle.

If it were just the power, wouldn't you be able to take the XC DMUs
from Stansted?

It's not just the power, because the junction north of Ely is closed.
But I agree that XC could run a DMU shuttle from Stansted to Ely, if
they thought it was more important than running buses instead.

But apparently they don't (think that).
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
08:18:37 on Mon, 22 Apr 2013, remarked:

So some ECML tickets will indeed be valid via Hitchin (or Stevenage
which is part of the same station group for routing purposes).

Actually, East Coast have two routings, "via Ely" and "via not London".
Only the latter is valid via Stevenage. The Cambridge-Birmingham off-peak
return is "via not London".

But it's a Cross-Country ticket, not an East Coast one.

Indeed, but it's an off-peak return which is not confined to one TOC.

I put Cambridge-Birmingham New Street via Hitchin into
the East Coast version of Webtis after posting my message here and was
offered the same off-peak return as my wife had. Webtis isn't likely to
be wrong is it? It was the basis on which I later complained to NRE about
giving out misleading information again.

I get £110.50 single from Webtis, which is the "via London" fare.

I put in CBG-BHM, via HIT. I put in outwards 27 April, return 28 April. I
also clicked "Show slower routes" and ticked "Via Not London". The Off-Peak
Return at £54.40 was shown as valid on the 18:22 departure from Birmingham,
arriving CBG 22:27 via Hitchin.

I suppose it's a subset of Birmingham-London via Peterborough&Hitchin
plus London-Cambridge via Hitchin.

The question is "why the person at Peterborough thought otherwise".

It wasn't just them (she saw an FCC gripper just after leaving PBO) as
mentioned above.

Many people can give the same story, the relevant questions "which of
the three stories is true.

If, as you suggest above, the ticket was the more expensive "via
London" one, then this entire conversation is at cross purposes.

Huh? I didn't say it was a via London ticket. It was an Off-Peak Return
issued by GA at Cambridge.

Please disclose the price of the ticket.

[1] And again, quite unusually, shows two very infrequent paths, via
the Syston North Curve and the Ely avoiding loop. It also implies
that there was once a through service from Crewe via Derby and
Loughborough to East Anglia.

There are real routes via Syston North Curve because the East Midlands
trains via Corby use it.

There's two a day Nottingham/Ely type train that uses the curve
(southbound, early in the morning) and one Spalding-Nottingham late
at night. Much longer established than the very few through Corby
ones (most are south-facing shuttles between Corby and StP).

One each way a day between Derby and St Pancras.

Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (John Levine)
wrote:

This seems to involve not being able to run trains between Ely and
Cambridge - which might be a result of turning off the power over the
whole stretch from Chesterton to Downham Market, and not having any DMUs
in the FCC fleet. But they are also not running the GA DMUs to Ipswich,
and the GA DMUs they aren't running between Cambridge and Norwich could
easily be turned into a shuttle.

If it were just the power, wouldn't you be able to take the XC DMUs
from Stansted?

Stansted to Ely indeed. They only shuttled between Stansted and Cambridge,
however.

Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 19:46:55
on Mon, 22 Apr 2013, remarked:
So some ECML tickets will indeed be valid via Hitchin (or Stevenage
which is part of the same station group for routing purposes).

Actually, East Coast have two routings, "via Ely" and "via not London".
Only the latter is valid via Stevenage. The Cambridge-Birmingham off-peak
return is "via not London".

But it's a Cross-Country ticket, not an East Coast one.

Indeed, but it's an off-peak return which is not confined to one TOC.

Price set by XC, not EC.

I put Cambridge-Birmingham New Street via Hitchin into
the East Coast version of Webtis after posting my message here and was
offered the same off-peak return as my wife had. Webtis isn't likely to
be wrong is it? It was the basis on which I later complained to NRE about
giving out misleading information again.

I get £110.50 single from Webtis, which is the "via London" fare.

I put in CBG-BHM, via HIT. I put in outwards 27 April, return 28 April. I
also clicked "Show slower routes" and ticked "Via Not London". The Off-Peak
Return at £54.40 was shown as valid on the 18:22 departure from Birmingham,
arriving CBG 22:27 via Hitchin.

If you look at the weekend after, then the £54.40 ticket is not shown as
valid (you need the £70 one).

Which makes it look like a temporary easement because of the works at
Ely. (One of the three possibilities I mentioned).

I didn't say it was a via London ticket. It was an Off-Peak Return
issued by GA at Cambridge.

But that could just have easily have been a "via London" one. It always
helps to disclose all the details when making enquiries about ticketing!

Please disclose the price of the ticket.

[1] And again, quite unusually, shows two very infrequent paths, via
the Syston North Curve and the Ely avoiding loop. It also implies
that there was once a through service from Crewe via Derby and
Loughborough to East Anglia.

There are real routes via Syston North Curve because the East Midlands
trains via Corby use it.

There's two a day Nottingham/Ely type train that uses the curve
(southbound, early in the morning) and one Spalding-Nottingham late
at night. Much longer established than the very few through Corby
ones (most are south-facing shuttles between Corby and StP).

One each way a day between Derby and St Pancras.

There's two Nottingham-Norwich trains, early in the morning, and an ECS
from Derby to form the early morning Melton Mowbray to London (via
Corby) service.

In the other direction a mid evening ECS from Melton to Derby and a
Spalding-Nottingham service late in the evening.

Strictly speaking the northbound Derby service starts from Corby, with
the same stock having arrived from St Pancras 20 minutes earlier and
split into one service to Derby and another back to London.

--
Roland Perry