On 01/09/2013 20:21, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 18:23:41 +0000 (UTC), d
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 18:26:49 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
On 31/08/2013 17:30, d wrote:
For closing the entire section of the Nothern Line for the entire w/e.

Cheers for that. Very considerate.

Utter ******s.

Yeah, I hate the fact that they're upgrading the line so it'll be more
reliable, will run with more trains on it and will move more people.
Such idiots. It's almost as if they think they're in the mass
transportation business.

And there was me thinking they could test the upgrades in sections. You know,
like they did with the Victoria line? Or even - and I know this is a radical
idea for LU - but how about at night! Gasp! But no, close the entire central
section for the w/e, much less hassle for them.

Like I said - ******s.

Stockwell to Morden will likely be next, if it makes you feel any better.

On 01/09/2013 21:17, Richard J. wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote on 01 September 2013 20:21:28
...

[snip]
The Northern Line is a very complex operation and you need to get test
trains running through both junctions and all of the branches to make
sure you are giving the new system a robust "check". RATP did not
convert their Line 1 to ATO without line closures and late starts
*every* Sunday for months.

The recent operation on Line 1 in Paris has been to convert from
driver-controlled ATO to driverless automatic operation using new
rolling stock, after installing platform edge doors at all stations. For
some months, the new driverless trains were mixed in with normal ATO
trains. It's now all driverless.

The Paris Metro converted most of its lines to ATO between 1969 and
1979, retrofitting ATO to existing stock. I don't know what line
closures this entailed.

What Paris Metro lines are non-ATO at this point? As well, are there
concrete plans afoot to make the entire network dirverless? What
timeframe is stipulated for that?

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 21:48:29 +0100, "
wrote:

On 01/09/2013 21:17, Richard J. wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote on 01 September 2013 20:21:28
...

[snip]
The Northern Line is a very complex operation and you need to get test
trains running through both junctions and all of the branches to make
sure you are giving the new system a robust "check". RATP did not
convert their Line 1 to ATO without line closures and late starts
*every* Sunday for months.

The recent operation on Line 1 in Paris has been to convert from
driver-controlled ATO to driverless automatic operation using new
rolling stock, after installing platform edge doors at all stations. For
some months, the new driverless trains were mixed in with normal ATO
trains. It's now all driverless.

The Paris Metro converted most of its lines to ATO between 1969 and
1979, retrofitting ATO to existing stock. I don't know what line
closures this entailed.

I'm out of date then. I knew they had clever train management systems
to assist in the maintenance of headways but didn't know they were all
ATO. I thought most of the lines were still manually driven and
conventionally signalled.

What Paris Metro lines are non-ATO at this point? As well, are there
concrete plans afoot to make the entire network dirverless? What
timeframe is stipulated for that?

Only line 4, the second busiest line, has been announced for
conversion to driverless operation.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...ro-line-4.html

I'm surprised the strongly unionised French have progressed so far down the
driverless route, yet we've lagged behind.

On 2013-09-01 19:44:23 +0000, d said:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 20:21:28 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
upgraded line in recent years. The Vic Line was closed across the
Central Area and elsewhere for weekend after weekend. We endured years

The Vic line was switching from one ATO system to another with potential
interworking and interference issues. The northern line is switching to ATO
from trip cocks and signals with no possibility of the new system affecting
the old. Therefor it would be entirely possible for them to install the lot
then test it every night for months on end for a few hours each time with no
inconvenience to the public.

If only they'd sought your advice first.

On 2013-09-01, d
wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 20:21:28 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
upgraded line in recent years. The Vic Line was closed across the
Central Area and elsewhere for weekend after weekend. We endured years

The Vic line was switching from one ATO system to another with potential
interworking and interference issues. The northern line is switching to ATO
from trip cocks and signals with no possibility of the new system affecting
the old. Therefor it would be entirely possible for them to install the lot
then test it every night for months on end for a few hours each time with no
inconvenience to the public.

Except that the system also changes the points, so the two systems do
affect each other after all.

E.
--
ms fnd in a lbry

On 01/09/2013 23:39, Recliner wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 21:48:29 +0100, "
wrote:

On 01/09/2013 21:17, Richard J. wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote on 01 September 2013 20:21:28
...

[snip]
The Northern Line is a very complex operation and you need to get test
trains running through both junctions and all of the branches to make
sure you are giving the new system a robust "check". RATP did not
convert their Line 1 to ATO without line closures and late starts
*every* Sunday for months.

The recent operation on Line 1 in Paris has been to convert from
driver-controlled ATO to driverless automatic operation using new
rolling stock, after installing platform edge doors at all stations. For
some months, the new driverless trains were mixed in with normal ATO
trains. It's now all driverless.

The Paris Metro converted most of its lines to ATO between 1969 and
1979, retrofitting ATO to existing stock. I don't know what line
closures this entailed.

I'm out of date then. I knew they had clever train management systems
to assist in the maintenance of headways but didn't know they were all
ATO. I thought most of the lines were still manually driven and
conventionally signalled.

What Paris Metro lines are non-ATO at this point? As well, are there
concrete plans afoot to make the entire network dirverless? What
timeframe is stipulated for that?

Only line 4, the second busiest line, has been announced for
conversion to driverless operation.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...ro-line-4.html

I'm surprised the strongly unionised French have progressed so far down the
driverless route, yet we've lagged behind.


To paraphrase Michael Palin:

"It was all a dream!"

"No, dear, you're still in the prison cell."

On 03/09/2013 10:33, Richard wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 23:29:06 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

I'm out of date then. I knew they had clever train management systems
to assist in the maintenance of headways but didn't know they were all
ATO. I thought most of the lines were still manually driven and
conventionally signalled.

Paris tried their first ATO in the 50s, on a short line not in service
any more. After what must have been a lot of thought, the first line
(11) was converted in 1969. The rest of the network, except
short/quiet lines 3b, 7b and 10 were converted over the next 10 years,
some being refitted with the latest version.

It might look like there isn't ATO as all original lines are fully
conventionally signalled along with the plethora of words, times,
lights, bells and whistles that seem to be there to keep the trains on
time as you mention above!

The newest ATO is now on lines 1 and 14, with, I think 4 coming next.
With this system (SAET) there are colour lights as before but these
are nothing to do with the ATO so the red aspect is replaced with
purple to avoid frightening the horses (pax at the front of the
train). A train in ATO occupies relatively short "virtual" blocks
(but still fixed, I think like the Victoria line?). The real block
sections are, AIUI not necessarily aligned with some number of virtual
blocks and are only there for trains being driven manually.

Richard.

I thought that there were a couple of lines that were still manual.
Admittedly, however, that was in 1999.

wrote on 03 September 2013
20:44:27 ...
On 03/09/2013 10:33, Richard wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 23:29:06 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

I'm out of date then. I knew they had clever train management systems
to assist in the maintenance of headways but didn't know they were all
ATO. I thought most of the lines were still manually driven and
conventionally signalled.

Paris tried their first ATO in the 50s, on a short line not in service
any more. After what must have been a lot of thought, the first line
(11) was converted in 1969. The rest of the network, except
short/quiet lines 3b, 7b and 10 were converted over the next 10 years,
some being refitted with the latest version.

It might look like there isn't ATO as all original lines are fully
conventionally signalled along with the plethora of words, times,
lights, bells and whistles that seem to be there to keep the trains on
time as you mention above!

The newest ATO is now on lines 1 and 14, with, I think 4 coming next.
With this system (SAET) there are colour lights as before but these
are nothing to do with the ATO so the red aspect is replaced with
purple to avoid frightening the horses (pax at the front of the
train). A train in ATO occupies relatively short "virtual" blocks
(but still fixed, I think like the Victoria line?). The real block
sections are, AIUI not necessarily aligned with some number of virtual
blocks and are only there for trains being driven manually.

Richard.

I thought that there were a couple of lines that were still manual.
Admittedly, however, that was in 1999.

Line 10 and the short branch lines 3bis and 7bis are still fully manual.
The train frequencies (not more than about 20tph on line 10) did not
justify the expense of installing ATO. Most of the lines with ATO have
peak frequencies of 31 to 40 tph.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 04:30:43PM +0000, d wrote:

For closing the entire section of the Nothern Line for the entire w/e.
Cheers for that. Very considerate.

And the utter utter *******s even had the cheek to publicise this well
in advance so that you could make alternative plans. The cads!

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

You can't spell AWESOME without ME!

On 04/09/2013 13:12, David Cantrell wrote:
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 04:30:43PM +0000, d wrote:

For closing the entire section of the Nothern Line for the entire w/e.
Cheers for that. Very considerate.

And the utter utter *******s even had the cheek to publicise this well
in advance so that you could make alternative plans. The cads!


Don't tell him that the Edgware Branch is closed this weekend.