On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 09:24:05 +0100, kenw wrote:

Spud

If you would prefer to travel on a deep-level underground railway with
untested control systems, that's up to you.

But I suspect most Londoners want the Underground to be safe. And that
means testing new systems thoroughly.

Do you think some signal sengineers simply obtained a full weekend
possession without a proper examination of the needs / alternatives /
impacts?

Think for a moment of the thousands complex actions and interactions
involved in running any kind of high-density railway. The system and
its controllers / users have to "understand"

- state (moving or stationary), location and speed of every train

- route and destination

- location of every signal, junction and station

… and dozens more about which the brethren here will be able to inform us.

Then each of those factors has to be tested both in combination and
with any / every other.

What's the alternative? Trying to squeeze it in to overnight posssions
lasting 4-5 hours, when other routine maintenance is already under way
– for which the power has to be turned off? Assuming that an overnight
posession allows, say, 3.5 hours work, the weekend equates to abut 15
overnights. That's three weeks in which little or no track work or
other maintenance can be done.

And for which, assuming the tests require a number of moving trains,
drivers will have to be taken off their normal duties and rostered for
special "out of hours" shifts (thus reducing their availability during
normal days, which would mean fewer trains when you might want one).

I think if LU inflicted that on us we would indeed be tempted to
describe them in the terms used.

Methinks comments of this kind indicate a failure of the control
systems connecting brains to fingers and keyboards! As one of my first
editors used to say: Think before you write.

Is Spud fitted with such control systems? He's not demonstrated much
evidence of them to date.

On Sunday, 1 September 2013 01:24:05 UTC-7, kenw wrote:
Spud



If you would prefer to travel on a deep-level underground railway with

untested control systems, that's up to you.



But I suspect most Londoners want the Underground to be safe. And that

means testing new systems thoroughly.



Do you think some signal sengineers simply obtained a full weekend

possession without a proper examination of the needs / alternatives /

impacts?



Think for a moment of the thousands complex actions and interactions

involved in running any kind of high-density railway. The system and

its controllers / users have to "understand"



- state (moving or stationary), location and speed of every train



- route and destination



- location of every signal, junction and station



… and dozens more about which the brethren here will be able to inform us.



Then each of those factors has to be tested both in combination and

with any / every other.



What's the alternative? Trying to squeeze it in to overnight posssions

lasting 4-5 hours, when other routine maintenance is already under way

– for which the power has to be turned off? Assuming that an overnight

posession allows, say, 3.5 hours work, the weekend equates to abut 15

overnights. That's three weeks in which little or no track work or

other maintenance can be done.



And for which, assuming the tests require a number of moving trains,

drivers will have to be taken off their normal duties and rostered for

special "out of hours" shifts (thus reducing their availability during

normal days, which would mean fewer trains when you might want one).



I think if LU inflicted that on us we would indeed be tempted to

describe them in the terms used.


Well said. Hear, Hear.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 18:26:49 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
On 31/08/2013 17:30, d wrote:
For closing the entire section of the Nothern Line for the entire w/e.

Cheers for that. Very considerate.

Utter ******s.

Yeah, I hate the fact that they're upgrading the line so it'll be more
reliable, will run with more trains on it and will move more people.
Such idiots. It's almost as if they think they're in the mass
transportation business.

And there was me thinking they could test the upgrades in sections. You know,
like they did with the Victoria line? Or even - and I know this is a radical
idea for LU - but how about at night! Gasp! But no, close the entire central
section for the w/e, much less hassle for them.

Like I said - ******s.

--
Spud

On 01/09/2013 19:23, d wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 18:26:49 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
On 31/08/2013 17:30, d wrote:
For closing the entire section of the Nothern Line for the entire w/e.

Cheers for that. Very considerate.

Utter ******s.

Yeah, I hate the fact that they're upgrading the line so it'll be more
reliable, will run with more trains on it and will move more people.
Such idiots. It's almost as if they think they're in the mass
transportation business.

And there was me thinking they could test the upgrades in sections. You know,
like they did with the Victoria line? Or even - and I know this is a radical
idea for LU - but how about at night! Gasp! But no, close the entire central
section for the w/e, much less hassle for them.

Like I said - ******s.

--
Spud

Just guessin', but if they were testing the new signalling at the complex
junctions at Camden Town and Kennington, wouldn't that explain the extent
of this weekend's closures?

JP

On Sunday, 1 September 2013 11:23:41 UTC-7, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 18:26:49 +0100

Mizter T wrote:

On 31/08/2013 17:30, d wrote:

For closing the entire section of the Nothern Line for the entire w/e.



Cheers for that. Very considerate.



Utter ******s.



Yeah, I hate the fact that they're upgrading the line so it'll be more

reliable, will run with more trains on it and will move more people.

Such idiots. It's almost as if they think they're in the mass

transportation business.



And there was me thinking they could test the upgrades in sections. You know,

like they did with the Victoria line? Or even - and I know this is a radical

idea for LU - but how about at night! Gasp! But no, close the entire central

section for the w/e, much less hassle for them.


TfL is far from perfect. But, on this one, they have it right. The Victoria Line switched from one automatic system to another, and it WAS closed some weekends. I know I was inconvenienced. The Northern is a complex network and is being automated for the first time.

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 20:21:28 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
upgraded line in recent years. The Vic Line was closed across the
Central Area and elsewhere for weekend after weekend. We endured years

The Vic line was switching from one ATO system to another with potential
interworking and interference issues. The northern line is switching to ATO
from trip cocks and signals with no possibility of the new system affecting
the old. Therefor it would be entirely possible for them to install the lot
then test it every night for months on end for a few hours each time with no
inconvenience to the public.

--
Spud

Paul Corfield wrote on 01 September 2013 20:21:28 ...

[snip]
The Northern Line is a very complex operation and you need to get test
trains running through both junctions and all of the branches to make
sure you are giving the new system a robust "check". RATP did not
convert their Line 1 to ATO without line closures and late starts
*every* Sunday for months.

The recent operation on Line 1 in Paris has been to convert from
driver-controlled ATO to driverless automatic operation using new
rolling stock, after installing platform edge doors at all stations.
For some months, the new driverless trains were mixed in with normal ATO
trains. It's now all driverless.

The Paris Metro converted most of its lines to ATO between 1969 and
1979, retrofitting ATO to existing stock. I don't know what line
closures this entailed.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Sunday, 1 September 2013 12:44:23 UTC-7, wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 20:21:28 +0100

Paul Corfield wrote:

upgraded line in recent years. The Vic Line was closed across the

Central Area and elsewhere for weekend after weekend. We endured years



The Vic line was switching from one ATO system to another with potential

interworking and interference issues. The northern line is switching to ATO

from trip cocks and signals with no possibility of the new system affecting

the old. Therefor it would be entirely possible for them to install the lot

then test it every night for months on end for a few hours each time with no

inconvenience to the public.

IMHO it is better to simulate several hours of normal operation sans passengers.

On 01/09/2013 20:02, Johannes Patruus wrote:
On 01/09/2013 19:23, d wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 18:26:49 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
On 31/08/2013 17:30, d wrote:
For closing the entire section of the Nothern Line for the entire w/e.

Cheers for that. Very considerate.

Utter ******s.

Yeah, I hate the fact that they're upgrading the line so it'll be more
reliable, will run with more trains on it and will move more people.
Such idiots. It's almost as if they think they're in the mass
transportation business.

And there was me thinking they could test the upgrades in sections.
You know,
like they did with the Victoria line? Or even - and I know this is a
radical
idea for LU - but how about at night! Gasp! But no, close the entire
central
section for the w/e, much less hassle for them.

Like I said - ******s.

--
Spud

Just guessin', but if they were testing the new signalling at the
complex junctions at Camden Town and Kennington, wouldn't that explain
the extent of this weekend's closures?

JP
They are testing it in sections, from the look of things.

On 01/09/2013 20:21, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 18:23:41 +0000 (UTC), d
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 18:26:49 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
On 31/08/2013 17:30, d wrote:
For closing the entire section of the Nothern Line for the entire w/e.

Cheers for that. Very considerate.

Utter ******s.

Yeah, I hate the fact that they're upgrading the line so it'll be more
reliable, will run with more trains on it and will move more people.
Such idiots. It's almost as if they think they're in the mass
transportation business.

And there was me thinking they could test the upgrades in sections. You know,
like they did with the Victoria line? Or even - and I know this is a radical
idea for LU - but how about at night! Gasp! But no, close the entire central
section for the w/e, much less hassle for them.

Like I said - ******s.

Hardly. While I agree that such large closures can be a pain it would
be an even worse pain if the signalling was not tested thoroughly and
you had Kennington and Camden Town junctions fall over on a regular
basis once the new system is switched on.

The Northern Line closures are far, far lower in number than any other
upgraded line in recent years. The Vic Line was closed across the
Central Area and elsewhere for weekend after weekend. We endured years
of early finishes on the line while tracks were replaced. The Jubilee
Line was a mess all on its own but that nightmare has meant loads of
lessons have been learnt which are being applied on the Northern Line
upgrade which is why the initial sections have switched over to the
new signalling with barely a glitch. Virtually all of the installation
work to put the system in place is being done at night which is why
the Northern Line is NOT closed every weekend for 5 years.

The Northern Line is a very complex operation and you need to get test
trains running through both junctions and all of the branches to make
sure you are giving the new system a robust "check". RATP did not
convert their Line 1 to ATO without line closures and late starts
*every* Sunday for months. As a different way of doing things I'd say
the Northern Line seltrac installation is going OK. I am sure you
WON'T agree with me but there you go!

When is the new signalling system expected to be up and running across
the line?