Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to **** about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something useful
and productive.

Programming? At your age? How thrilling!

Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago. For me, it was
never more than a means to an end, and I was happy to switch to code-free
environments once they could do what I wanted. I certainly didn't want to
make my living from it, and never did, despite writing programs that could
tie up the then world's largest computer for 20 minutes when I was doing my
thesis.

The last 3GL code I wrote was probably around 30 years ago (very much as a
part-time activity), and 4GL 15+ years ago. Even programming fancy Excel
formulas or macros doesn't turn me on any more. Once I knew I could do it,
I didn't get any thrills from doing it year after year. There were new
challenges to turn me on, and programming seemed like an activity best
reserved for younger, cheaper people. I know what code can do, but it
doesn't have to be me doing it, any more than I would want to wash my car
myself.

I do appreciate that some people enjoy washing their own cars, and others
continue to enjoy programming. But there are better ways to make a living
for those who can.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:36:10 -0600
Recliner wrote:
Eric wrote:
Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago. For me, it was
never more than a means to an end, and I was happy to switch to code-free

And that says even more about you - ie no good at programming, should never
have gone into it in the first place and you didn't have the balls to look
elsewhere for a job - you took the easy option. You'd have probably been happy
as a retail manager in a tesco or something similar.

environments once they could do what I wanted. I certainly didn't want to
make my living from it, and never did, despite writing programs that could
tie up the then world's largest computer for 20 minutes when I was doing my
thesis.

This is priceless )

Anyone could tie up a single threaded computer for all eternity just by
sticking it in an endless loop you dimwit. 20 mins, FFS ...

The last 3GL code I wrote was probably around 30 years ago (very much as a
part-time activity), and 4GL 15+ years ago. Even programming fancy Excel
formulas or macros doesn't turn me on any more. Once I knew I could do it,

I hate to break the news to you, but writing Excel macros is only "programming"
if you're a complete beginner. I expect you think writing HTML is programming
too hmm?

I didn't get any thrills from doing it year after year. There were new
challenges to turn me on, and programming seemed like an activity best
reserved for younger, cheaper people. I know what code can do, but it
doesn't have to be me doing it, any more than I would want to wash my car
myself.

Obviously you have zero imagination to boot.


I do appreciate that some people enjoy washing their own cars, and others
continue to enjoy programming. But there are better ways to make a living
for those who can.

Poor analogy. The programmer/engineer is the person who built the car, the
one washing it is the person who uses it on a daily basis. Eg , the pointy
haired manager who uses Powerpoint for example.

Face it - you have no clue about what you're talking about, you were a failure
as a progammer who jumped before he was pushed and you could be Exhibit A
from the Dilbert Principle.

Oh, but your spellings ok. Well hallelujah, watch the company share price rise!

--
Spud

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:52:28 GMT, d wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:36:10 -0600
Recliner wrote:
Eric wrote:
Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago. For me, it was
never more than a means to an end, and I was happy to switch to code-free

And that says even more about you - ie no good at programming, should never
have gone into it in the first place and you didn't have the balls to look
elsewhere for a job - you took the easy option. You'd have probably been happy
as a retail manager in a tesco or something similar.

If you could read better than you write, you'd also have noticed that
I never was a programmer. I occasionally wrote code as needed in other
jobs (I actually spent more time specifying languages than using
them). My degrees were in engineering, not programming, so writing
code was always a means to the end. Programmers were people I
employed. My coding skills were OK, but I hope the pros were much
better.


environments once they could do what I wanted. I certainly didn't want to
make my living from it, and never did, despite writing programs that could
tie up the then world's largest computer for 20 minutes when I was doing my
thesis.

This is priceless )

Anyone could tie up a single threaded computer for all eternity just by
sticking it in an endless loop you dimwit. 20 mins, FFS ...

Oh dear. Running large mesh finite element programs is computationally
intensive, especially if it's iteratively simulating thermal creep.
But you probably only know about the other sort of creep.


The last 3GL code I wrote was probably around 30 years ago (very much as a
part-time activity), and 4GL 15+ years ago. Even programming fancy Excel
formulas or macros doesn't turn me on any more. Once I knew I could do it,

I hate to break the news to you, but writing Excel macros is only "programming"
if you're a complete beginner. I expect you think writing HTML is programming
too hmm?

As I said, even basic programming like Excel macros, let alone the
hard-core stuff, bores me to tears.


I didn't get any thrills from doing it year after year. There were new
challenges to turn me on, and programming seemed like an activity best
reserved for younger, cheaper people. I know what code can do, but it
doesn't have to be me doing it, any more than I would want to wash my car
myself.

Obviously you have zero imagination to boot.


I do appreciate that some people enjoy washing their own cars, and others
continue to enjoy programming. But there are better ways to make a living
for those who can.

Poor analogy. The programmer/engineer is the person who built the car, the
one washing it is the person who uses it on a daily basis. Eg , the pointy
haired manager who uses Powerpoint for example.

I preferred being the person who commissioned the project to build the
car, hiring cheaper, junior grunts to actually do the stress analysis.
Unfortunately, a few were like you, but most were bright and willing.


Face it - you have no clue about what you're talking about, you were a failure
as a progammer who jumped before he was pushed and you could be Exhibit A
from the Dilbert Principle.

I wasn't ever a programmer, as I keep pointing out. It might have been
your highest aspiration; it was never mine. I just wrote code as
needed, and preferably not very often, and certainly not once I could
hire others to do it.

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 14:34:27 +0000
Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:52:28 GMT, d wrote:
Anyone could tie up a single threaded computer for all eternity just by
sticking it in an endless loop you dimwit. 20 mins, FFS ...

Oh dear. Running large mesh finite element programs is computationally
intensive, especially if it's iteratively simulating thermal creep.
But you probably only know about the other sort of creep.

Running a prime number generator is computationally intensive and a simple
one of those is about 3 lines of C. Whats your point exactly? That my program
took X minutes on computer Y so it must have been impressive? Err, no, sorry.

I hate to break the news to you, but writing Excel macros is only
"programming"
if you're a complete beginner. I expect you think writing HTML is programming
too hmm?

As I said, even basic programming like Excel macros, let alone the
hard-core stuff, bores me to tears.

I doubt you would know where to start if someone told you to go off and write
some hard-core stuff. But as you say , you got other people to do the hard
work while you just shuffled paperclips around.

I wasn't ever a programmer, as I keep pointing out. It might have been
your highest aspiration; it was never mine. I just wrote code as

You can't really aspire to something you're clearly no good at.

I was happy in the company, and BTW, I was promoted from being a
software sales exec to sales manager, managing the sales people and
techies who had to support the customers. I made a lot more in
commission as a techie sales exec than as a techie sales manager, and
far more than anyone doing an actual techie job.

Oh dear, its so sad that you genuinely think that making it to the position
of a sales rep is something to boast about. You'd sooner do a job whose most
famous exponent is David Brent instead of one represented by people such as
Alan Turing , Ada Lovelace, Steve Wozniak and so on. I rest my case.

Yes, I was pretty pleased to have one built for me, to my exact spec,
in my 30s. It was a lot better than the Audi, Alfa, etc that I'd
previously chosen. And in those days, there were no tax penalties.

So in other words it wasn't even your own car, it was a company car. But lets
not forget it had an 'i' on the end - 'i' for "important", right? )

So do you tell your clients what you really think of them?

I have done in the past when I've no intention of ever going back there.

--
Spud

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:45:35 GMT, wrote:

So has Spultar now turned into Neil (perhaps your real name)? The
funny thing is that you actually remind me of a Neil who once worked
for me, who had a very similar personality. You can imagine just how
popular he was with his colleagues.

Anyway, this thread has been very illuminating in other ways, too. We
can all be very pleased for you, having achieved your life's ambition
to be a contract programmer, despite the obvious gaps in your
education. Few other people are lucky enough to achieve all of their
career goals (I know I didn't). It must be this deep contentment with
your career that makes you such a placid and pleasant person, so
willing to see the best in all that surrounds you.

On 2013-12-15, Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:45:35 GMT, wrote:

So has Spultar now turned into Neil (perhaps your real name)?

Somebody uses that email address when posting to uk.transport. I don't
actually read the group so I have no idea whether it's the same person
or not. Anyone who uses different addresses for different purposes is
likely to accidentally use the wrong one from time to time.

The funny thing is that you actually remind me of a Neil who once worked
for me, who had a very similar personality. You can imagine just how
popular he was with his colleagues.

Anyway, this thread has been very illuminating in other ways, too. We
can all be very pleased for you, having achieved your life's ambition
to be a contract programmer, despite the obvious gaps in your
education. Few other people are lucky enough to achieve all of their
career goals (I know I didn't). It must be this deep contentment with
your career that makes you such a placid and pleasant person, so
willing to see the best in all that surrounds you.

"contract programmer" (or the similar but different "independent IT
consultant") is not a career goal, it's a way of getting quite a good
income doing work that, at worst, you are quite comfortable with and,
at best, find very enjoyable. The downsides are a bit of uncertainty
and the really horrible management types you sometimes have to deal with
(but only sometimes).

It's strange how those who have career goals (and/or ambition) often
fail to understand, and look down on, those who don't. Sorry, all they
are is different from you, it's allowed.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:35:37 +0000
Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-15, Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:45:35 GMT, wrote:

So has Spultar now turned into Neil (perhaps your real name)?

Somebody uses that email address when posting to uk.transport. I don't
actually read the group so I have no idea whether it's the same person
or not. Anyone who uses different addresses for different purposes is
likely to accidentally use the wrong one from time to time.

I mix and match id's and sometimes I use the wrong one. Its hardly for
secrecy, its simply to prevent bots amalgamating all my posts into one lump
for someone to pore over one day.

"contract programmer" (or the similar but different "independent IT
consultant") is not a career goal, it's a way of getting quite a good
income doing work that, at worst, you are quite comfortable with and,
at best, find very enjoyable. The downsides are a bit of uncertainty
and the really horrible management types you sometimes have to deal with
(but only sometimes).

That pretty much sums it up. You can't really ask for much more careerwise
that doing a job you quite like, being paid hansomly for it and not having
to worry too much about day to day company politics.

It's strange how those who have career goals (and/or ambition) often
fail to understand, and look down on, those who don't. Sorry, all they
are is different from you, it's allowed.

The ambitious types generally don't give a monkeys what industry they're in,
all they care about is being top dog to satisfy their own egos. Which means
they're exactly the wrong sort of person to be in charge.

--
Spud

On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:55:05 +0000
Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:45:35 GMT, wrote:
Anyway, this thread has been very illuminating in other ways, too. We
can all be very pleased for you, having achieved your life's ambition
to be a contract programmer, despite the obvious gaps in your
education. Few other people are lucky enough to achieve all of their
career goals (I know I didn't). It must be this deep contentment with
your career that makes you such a placid and pleasant person, so
willing to see the best in all that surrounds you.

Well quite. Glad we agree on something.

--
Spud

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to ****
about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something
useful
and productive.

Programming? At your age? How thrilling!

Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago.

But what do you move onto?

IME one in a 1000 of the available opportunities for advancement for
senior/principle engineers are "technical lead" positions. The rest are in
project management or line management - aka sitting at a desk pushing bits
of paper around, answering the phone from the client and attending meetings
all day.

and you think that is preferable, I certainly don't

tim

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:57:39 +0100, "tim......"
wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to ****
about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something
useful
and productive.

Programming? At your age? How thrilling!

Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago.

But what do you move onto?

IME one in a 1000 of the available opportunities for advancement for
senior/principle engineers are "technical lead" positions. The rest are in
project management or line management - aka sitting at a desk pushing bits
of paper around, answering the phone from the client and attending meetings
all day.

and you think that is preferable, I certainly don't

I moved into sales, then marketing, then general management. being
technical, I was the one sales guy who never needed a bag carrier, as
I could demonstrate everything I sold, and didn't sell things that
wouldn't do the job for the customer.

I later got to invent and specify new products, which teams of techies
then built. It was much more fun (and lucrative) than just being one
of those techies.