Queenstown Road
 

Mait001 wrote:
Because of divided loyalties, that's why the E.U., like all other
forced associations will ultimately fail.



Oh, I don't know - the UK seems to have coped fine with its own
divisions, and shows no signs of disintigrating as yet...

Jonn

That's just the point, Jonn: the U.K. is a UNITED Kingdom, whereas
Europe is neither a country nor united in any meaningful way.

Marc.

But it is only narrow nationalistic attitudes that will stop that happening
surely? Obviously I can't prove it but I would suggest it is a fair
assumption that many Scots, Welsh and Irish objected to union with England
at the time it happened, and many still do, but it has developed over time
into a worjkable system. Why shouldn't the EU do the same?

Queenstown Road
 

But it is only narrow nationalistic attitudes that will stop that happening
surely? Obviously I can't prove it but I would suggest it is a fair
assumption that many Scots, Welsh and Irish objected to union with England
at the time it happened, and many still do, but it has developed over time
into a worjkable system. Why shouldn't the EU do the same?

In theory, it may, but history suggests that it won't.

The United Kingdom is bound together both for pragmatic reasons and through a
common loyalty and ethos, personified in the Crown. I can never see anything
vaguely comparable amongst the disparate states of the E.U.

Queenstown Road
 

The UNITED Kingdom is no more real an entity than the European UNION.
You just seem to have decided arbitrarily that one is good and the
other bad.

I base my judgement on both the reality of the situation and historical
example. Name me one federation such as the E.U. that has stood the test of
time for anything like the number of years the U.K. has flourished, including
the creation and reasonably civilised dissolution of an Empire.

Marc.

Queenstown Road
 

Mait001 wrote:
But it is only narrow nationalistic attitudes that will stop that
happening surely? Obviously I can't prove it but I would suggest it
is a fair assumption that many Scots, Welsh and Irish objected to
union with England at the time it happened, and many still do, but
it has developed over time into a worjkable system. Why shouldn't
the EU do the same?

In theory, it may, but history suggests that it won't.

The United Kingdom is bound together both for pragmatic reasons and
through a common loyalty and ethos, personified in the Crown. I can
never see anything vaguely comparable amongst the disparate states of
the E.U.

So if the peoples what has become the UK can pledge loyalty etc to the Crown
of England why can't a similar office be created for Europe and, eventually,
do away with the UK parliament and all that goes with it? If over time more
countries were brought into the union so that it eventually encompassed the
whole world would this not be a good thing in terms of preventing war and
the other trials and tribulations that afflict mankind?

Queenstown Road
 

"Mait001" wrote in message
...

I'd guess it's because they're Conservatives, e.g. content with the
status
quo. This includes the unwritten constitution which centralizes all power
in
the Crown, and therefore in the government at Westminster. Therefore
moving
power to Edinburgh is just as offensive as moving power to Brussels -
because it detracts from the Sovreignty of Parliament.

Jonn



Nicely put, Jonn, although I personally find power being sent to Brussels
as
FAR more offensive than power being sent to Edinburgh or Cardiff.
Personally, I
see no problem with the English being governed largely by Scottish M.P.s
in the
Cabinet (as is the position now) since they are nominally loyal to the
Crown.

Ah, that's my problem you see - I feel no loyalty to the Crown whatsoever. I
feel that democracy and self-determination are the closest we can have to
exrpessions of public interest, so if a majority of Scots want their own
Parliament - or even independence - I believe they should have it.

What I don't agree with is multiple layers of overlapping government, or the
abolition of local authorities on the whim of the government of the day
(e.g. the GLC). I'd like to see a legally entrenced federal system of some
sort, which clearly delineates powers.


With the cabal in Strasbourg, there is neither a theoretical nor practical
prospect of ever removing them, since the majority come from other
countries,
of whose electorate none of us in the U.K. can ever be part.

I agree that the EU suffers from a severe democratic deficit; but I think we
do need elected international bodies to allow checks on the power of
multinationals or bodies like the WTO.

I appreciate that you may not think of yourself as a European; but I suggest
that there is a significant minority of Scots who wouldn't think of
themselves as British either.

Jonn

Queenstown Road
 

"Mait001" wrote in message
...

Because of divided loyalties, that's why the E.U., like all other
forced
associations will ultimately fail.



Oh, I don't know - the UK seems to have coped fine with its own
divisions,
and shows no signs of disintigrating as yet...

Jonn

That's just the point, Jonn: the U.K. is a UNITED Kingdom, whereas Europe
is
neither a country nor united in any meaningful way.

Marc.

Tell that to the SNP, or the miners c1984. I agree that Europe doesn't have
anything approaching a "national" identity; but I think you overestimate the
strength of the British identity. This country is intensely divided -
English, Scots, north, south, rich, poor - yet it seems to hang together
well enough.

Queenstown Road
 

"Jonn Elledge" wrote in message
...
"Mait001" wrote in message
...

Because of divided loyalties, that's why the E.U., like all other
forced
associations will ultimately fail.



Oh, I don't know - the UK seems to have coped fine with its own
divisions,
and shows no signs of disintigrating as yet...

Jonn

That's just the point, Jonn: the U.K. is a UNITED Kingdom, whereas
Europe
is
neither a country nor united in any meaningful way.

Marc.

Tell that to the SNP, or the miners c1984. I agree that Europe doesn't
have
anything approaching a "national" identity; but I think you overestimate
the
strength of the British identity. This country is intensely divided -
English, Scots, north, south, rich, poor - yet it seems to hang together
well enough.



It seems to me to be only some English people who describe themselves as
British, excluding the offspring of some more recent Commonwealth
immigrants.

Queenstown Road
 

"Cast_Iron" wrote in message
...

So if the peoples what has become the UK can pledge
loyalty etc to the Crown of England why can't a similar
office be created for Europe and, eventually, do away
with the UK parliament and all that goes with it?
If over time more countries were brought into the union
so that it eventually encompassed the whole world
would this not be a good thing in terms of preventing war
and the other trials and tribulations that afflict mankind?

That's a terrifying idea. If one government controlled all the world, to
where could the dissidents flee? When a dictator like Sadam Hussain took
over the whole world, who would topple him? How could we tell how badly the
government was doing without other countries to give us visions of other
ways to be?. The problem with the world isn't too many governments
squabbling over too few resources, it's that certain governments have
control of too many resources. Regular wars are a small price to pay for the
continued existence of multiple voices.

Hang on a minute... "Cast_Iron" .... are you Borg?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Queenstown Road
 

So if the peoples what has become the UK can pledge loyalty etc to the Crown
of England why can't a similar office be created for Europe and, eventually,
do away with the UK parliament and all that goes with it?

Name such an individual please - anyone alive today.

If over time more
countries were brought into the union so that it eventually encompassed the
whole world would this not be a good thing in terms of preventing war and
the other trials and tribulations that afflict mankind?

This is pure fantasy.

Marc.

Queenstown Road
 

That's a terrifying idea. If one government controlled all the world, to
where could the dissidents flee? When a dictator like Sadam Hussain took
over the whole world, who would topple him? How could we tell how badly the
government was doing without other countries to give us visions of other
ways to be?. The problem with the world isn't too many governments
squabbling over too few resources, it's that certain governments have
control of too many resources. Regular wars are a small price to pay for the
continued existence of multiple voices.

Well-put, John.

Marc.