On 02/09/2014 11:40, d wrote:
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 02:36:55 -0500
Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
Having lived through the "Third airport" debacle, where unless I'm very
much mistaken the result was expanding the biggest existing shortlisted
airport (and rejecting otherwise preferred but more expensive builds), I
wouldn't be surprised to see Gatwick being chosen for the "next new runway".

By that logic, surely Heathrow would be chosen? All the logic favours a
third Heathrow runway as first choice, with a second Gatwick runway the
next expansion option a few years later.

Logic actually favours no expansion at all.
By this you mean your logic or the logic you're minded to believe in?

The much quoted hub airport
will do nothing for UK Plc other than put more money into the pockets of
the airport owners and will be an enviromental disaster wherever its located.
The hub part is one argument, but it can clearly be argued that
expansion to even handle the current number of flights is necessary to
prevent stacking or horrendous problems caused by the smallest of issues
due to lack of over-capacity.

I await the response that if you build more capacity it will fill up,
and you hear the same argument about road building. Strangely, it's
rarely used when it comes to railways. But in any case if people feel
so strongly about such things they should examine their overall
travelling habits - but then they couldn't have their big house in the
leafy suburbs....

I'd also argue that the word "disaster" is hyperbole in this case
-unless of course any large infrastructure project comes under the same
heading.

If we see air travel as a necessity, even if that is an evil necessity,
then logic would dictate that you need a single airport that is easy
and quick to get to from all parts of the area it serves to use the
capacity as efficiently as possible - I haven't looked at the schedules
but I can well believe every London airport has several flights a day to
particular european destinations that could easily be consolidated into
less "movements" in larger, more efficient, planes if that were the case.

In message , at 11:50:51 on Tue, 2 Sep
2014, Someone Somewhere remarked:
I haven't looked at the schedules but I can well believe every London
airport has several flights a day to particular european destinations
that could easily be consolidated into less "movements" in larger, more
efficient, planes if that were the case.

Heathrow/Gatwick don't have flights to very many European destinations.
That market is dominated by low-cost airlines from other airports.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 12:08:00 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:50:51 on Tue, 2 Sep
2014, Someone Somewhere remarked:
I haven't looked at the schedules but I can well believe every London
airport has several flights a day to particular european destinations
that could easily be consolidated into less "movements" in larger, more
efficient, planes if that were the case.

Heathrow/Gatwick don't have flights to very many European destinations.
That market is dominated by low-cost airlines from other airports.

That's certainly true of the holiday resorts, but the major European
cities tend to have flights to Heathrow and Gatwick.

Also, don't forget that easyJet is now Gatwick's major airline, thus
reinforcing its position as being much less of a business airport than
Heathrow. Indeed, BA, which dominated the North terminal when it first
opened, will soon be squeezed out of that terminal, into the older
South terminal.

In message , at 12:22:10 on
Tue, 2 Sep 2014, Recliner remarked:
I haven't looked at the schedules but I can well believe every London
airport has several flights a day to particular european destinations
that could easily be consolidated into less "movements" in larger, more
efficient, planes if that were the case.

Heathrow/Gatwick don't have flights to very many European destinations.
That market is dominated by low-cost airlines from other airports.

That's certainly true of the holiday resorts, but the major European
cities tend to have flights to Heathrow and Gatwick.

That's not many cities though, and we know that flights to Brussels and
Paris are much reduced on account of Eurostar.

If we take the next most significant capital, Berlin, there are just ten
flights a day from Heathrow (seven by BA, three Germanwings) and three
from Gatwick (all Easyjet).

Frankfurt has a few more from Heathrow, but none from Gatwick.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:22:10 on
Tue, 2 Sep 2014, Recliner remarked:

BA, which dominated the North terminal when it first opened, will soon
be squeezed out of that terminal, into the older South terminal.

Which they must have inherited from the British Caledonian routes (the
takeover was almost the same month the terminal opened). BA subsequently
decided that its long-haul should be predominantly from Heathrow.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 12:47:40 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 12:22:10 on
Tue, 2 Sep 2014, Recliner remarked:

BA, which dominated the North terminal when it first opened, will soon
be squeezed out of that terminal, into the older South terminal.

Which they must have inherited from the British Caledonian routes (the
takeover was almost the same month the terminal opened). BA subsequently
decided that its long-haul should be predominantly from Heathrow.

Basically, BA puts as many flights into Heathrow as will fit, with the
overflow left in Gatwick. As long haul is more profitable, it's
largely in Heathrow, apart from beach flights. Virgin does exactly the
same. Most US airlines moved entirely to Heathrow as soon as they were
allowed to.

In message , at 13:07:29 on
Tue, 2 Sep 2014, Recliner remarked:
Basically, BA puts as many flights into Heathrow as will fit, with the
overflow left in Gatwick. As long haul is more profitable, it's
largely in Heathrow, apart from beach flights. Virgin does exactly the
same.

Exactly - and it's those beach flights which are the ones least likely
to be benefiting from a hub effect.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 13:14:48 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:07:29 on
Tue, 2 Sep 2014, Recliner remarked:
Basically, BA puts as many flights into Heathrow as will fit, with the
overflow left in Gatwick. As long haul is more profitable, it's
largely in Heathrow, apart from beach flights. Virgin does exactly the
same.

Exactly - and it's those beach flights which are the ones least likely
to be benefiting from a hub effect.

True, but the demand is for more hub flights, which is why it's
Heathrow that's bursting at the seams, while LCC-focused Stansted and
Gatwick are short of business. With six international airports, London
isn't really short of runway capacity, but it desperately needs a
bigger hub airport.

On 02/09/2014 12:08, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:50:51 on Tue, 2 Sep
2014, Someone Somewhere remarked:
I haven't looked at the schedules but I can well believe every London
airport has several flights a day to particular european destinations
that could easily be consolidated into less "movements" in larger,
more efficient, planes if that were the case.

Heathrow/Gatwick don't have flights to very many European destinations.
That market is dominated by low-cost airlines from other airports.

I did say "particular" and I did say "every London airport" not just
Gatwick and Heathrow. I can imagine that flights to Amsterdam for
example are pretty much available from every London airport (not
counting piddling ones like Southend)

Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 02/09/2014 12:08, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:50:51 on Tue, 2 Sep
2014, Someone Somewhere remarked:
I haven't looked at the schedules but I can well believe every London
airport has several flights a day to particular european destinations
that could easily be consolidated into less "movements" in larger,
more efficient, planes if that were the case.

Heathrow/Gatwick don't have flights to very many European destinations.
That market is dominated by low-cost airlines from other airports.

I did say "particular" and I did say "every London airport" not just
Gatwick and Heathrow. I can imagine that flights to Amsterdam for
example are pretty much available from every London airport (not counting
piddling ones like Southend)

Why not count Southend? easyJet has direct SEN-AMS flights.