On 10/10/2014 15:40, Mizter T wrote:

On 10/10/2014 15:10, Neil Williams wrote:

On 2014-10-10 13:22:40 +0000, Mizter T said:

Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me
one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London?

A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I
didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then
mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad?

The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine
because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of
online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash -
they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for
other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation
is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go'
experience the adverts make out!).

Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be
accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more
'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted
sharpish).

Thinking about it, this is quite possibly what an Oyster Mark II system
would be, if it's account based rather than card based (i.e. the value
is not stored on the card but only on the central database).

In message , at 15:45:16 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:
Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me
one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around London?

A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I
didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then
mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad?

The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine
because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of
online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash -
they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for
other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation
is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go'
experience the adverts make out!).

Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be
accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more
'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted
sharpish).

Thinking about it, this is quite possibly what an Oyster Mark II system
would be, if it's account based rather than card based (i.e. the value
is not stored on the card but only on the central database).

If that's an account with real money in it, won't that mean TfL have to
register with the authorities as a bank (which they didn't want to do
with Oyster). Stored value cards like Oyster seem to be a loophole.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/10/2014 15:53, Roland Perry wrote:

[...]
Scenario 1: I don't have a bank account, because no-one will give me
one on account of my past misdemeanours. How do I travel around
London?

A pre-paid debit card. I expect these will become more common. I
didn't say abolish it now, I said a 5-10 year horizon. Maybe by then
mobile phone tickets will have made an inroad?

The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine
because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of
online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash -
they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for
other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation
is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go'
experience the adverts make out!).

Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be
accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more
'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be blacklisted
sharpish).

Thinking about it, this is quite possibly what an Oyster Mark II
system would be, if it's account based rather than card based (i.e.
the value is not stored on the card but only on the central database).

If that's an account with real money in it, won't that mean TfL have to
register with the authorities as a bank (which they didn't want to do
with Oyster). Stored value cards like Oyster seem to be a loophole.

No (AIUI), as Oyster doesn't fall within the regulations as the only
thing you can use it for is paying for travel - it's not about the
technicalities of where the monetary value is stored, it's what it can
be spent on (a bus journey is travel, a packet of polos isn't).

On 2014-10-10 14:40:35 +0000, Mizter T said:

The prepaid contactless card I have doesn't work on TfL - I imagine
because one could use it to run up a debt on it, given the lack of
online authorisation (this is even though in this case - Orange Cash -
they do verify who you are). FWIW, I got it out of curiosity, and for
other contactless transactions it appears that an online authorisation
is indeed done each time (hence it's not quite the 'wave and go'
experience the adverts make out!).

Perhaps this might all change, or a limited amount of fraud might be
accepted given that, for instance, bus ticket machines are much more
'online' now than they used to be (so misused cards could be
blacklisted sharpish).

Quite possibly. Remember I didn't say now, I said 5-10 years hence.

A ticket machine where? In what was once the local Oyster Ticket Stop?

A Tube station? Other strategic locations like bus stations?

You might well have a backup Oyster card at home, or one you can borrow
from someone. (Have you never left your debit card out of your wallet
having bought something online?!)

Meanwhile...
Scenario 94: I have a contactless card but I don't have enough money in
the bank - perhaps I might be able to use it for a journey, but that'll
put me into unauthorised overdraft territory and my journey home will
cost rather more than two or three quid.

How's that different to the same situation with an Oyster card you have
to top up? I suppose you might have a couple of quid cash in your
pocket, but we are heading into Ian Batten's favourite goat-herding
exceptions here.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 2014-10-10 14:53:24 +0000, Roland Perry said:

If that's an account with real money in it, won't that mean TfL have to
register with the authorities as a bank (which they didn't want to do
with Oyster). Stored value cards like Oyster seem to be a loophole.

The Royal Mail and moonpig.com both allow pre-pay online balances. I'm
sure there are many others, and I'm sure none are registered as banks.

Isn't that one more about how it can be spent?

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
wrote:
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface
access to London's airports. It can be found at:-
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list

Thanks for coming and posting that

That covers most of the comments I might have made. In particular, if the
balance shifts towards expansion of Gatwick then thoughts need to be made
in
terms of interconnecting Gatwick and Heathrow in a better way than the
National Express bus crawling along the M25. Electrifying the North Downs
line plus Airtrack seem sensible ideas, though there's a question about
whether airside transfer is going to be a necessity of running two hub
airports: a long of transfer passengers won't have visas for the UK.

Another point is about access from north of Stansted - that's still a
problem for access to London airports, just not from London. The train
service, consisting of Cross Country from Birmingham, is essentially run
to
suit Birmingham not airport passengers: the first arrival on Sundays is
1444, and doesn't run sufficiently early in the morning or late at night
to
match the kind of flights that operate out of Stansted.

Also ticket machines need some serious work to rationalise the user
interface for people who are unfamiliar with UK ticketing or restrictions.
All they know is 'London', and are confused by the options for Super
Off-Peak TOC-only Travelcards and all the permutations.

IME this is a problem with almost every major country in the world

Why should London have to try hard to solve it?

tim

In message , at 17:19:05 on Fri, 10
Oct 2014, Neil Williams remarked:
If that's an account with real money in it, won't that mean TfL have
to register with the authorities as a bank (which they didn't want to
do with Oyster). Stored value cards like Oyster seem to be a loophole.

The Royal Mail and moonpig.com both allow pre-pay online balances. I'm
sure there are many others, and I'm sure none are registered as banks.

Isn't that one more about how it can be spent?

You can get a refund from Oyster, is that true of your two examples (I
know that getting a refund for a phone top-up is virtually impossible).
--
Roland Perry

tim..... wrote:

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
[quoted entire message]

IME this is a problem with almost every major country in the world

Why should London have to try hard to solve it?

To which problem do you refer?

Theo

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
tim..... wrote:

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
[quoted entire message]

IME this is a problem with almost every major country in the world

Why should London have to try hard to solve it?

To which problem do you refer?

being (un)able to buy "national" rail tickets rather than just local tickets
from the machine in the airport metro station.

(obviously this is not always a problem where the airport is served by the
local national rail network)

tim

tim..... wrote:

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
tim..... wrote:

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
[quoted entire message]

IME this is a problem with almost every major country in the world

Why should London have to try hard to solve it?

To which problem do you refer?

being (un)able to buy "national" rail tickets rather than just local tickets
from the machine in the airport metro station.

(obviously this is not always a problem where the airport is served by the
local national rail network)

Gatwick /is/ served by the national rail network. And a large number of
passengers are hoping to take a train to London, but that means they have to
deal with National Rail. In which case they shouldn't have to decide
whether they want a train in Southern, Gatwick Express or FCC colours, or
whether they want a ticket that allows them to travel during some
vaguely-specified hours called 'peak'. It's no wonder the queues at Gatwick
are a problem if the staff have to explain all this, especially to people
who might not speak English. And the ticket machines are worse: instead of
saying 'are you coming back today?' and 'if you want to travel to London
before 10am Monday-Friday, press here', they offer bewildering names like
Super Off-Peak Travelcards that not even the denizens of this group know
exactly what they mean.

Theo