On 31/03/2015 07:49, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 23:22:55 on Mon, 30 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:
Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system,
forget about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the
savannah. Though I imagine there'd still be one or two persistent
voices around the camp fire complaining long into the night about how
things don't work...

It would be interesting to know what it is about the cards which stops
them working. A lot of people probably think "contactless" is some sort
of 'standard', but clearly it isn't.

EMV contactless is a standard. But come on, you know about standards...

FWIW, you can knock yourself out reading "the EMV Contactless
Specifications for Payment Systems" he

http://www.emvco.com/specifications.aspx?id=21

On 31/03/2015 09:33, d wrote:

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:22:55 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget
about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah.

Modern living being people happily allowing TfL to raid their bank accounts
so they can have a slightly-slower-an-less-reliable-than-oyster service?
Bunch of fecking mugs. Still, you can't educate pork and this city is full
of it.

I doubt you've used it - works very well, it is ever-so-slightly-slower
to read the card but I don't know where you get the less reliable bit from.

Given the back office processing, issues such as the OSI max journey
time-out that you could encounter with Oyster (where processing happens
'on the card') don't crop up, at least AFAIAA (I haven't tried testing
it to destruction yet).


Still, no doubt in 10 years time Oyster will be discontinued along with paper
tickets and we won't have a choice and can be nicely tracked wherever we go
to boot. Though hopefully I'll be well away from this filthy zoo by then.

Likely still ranting into cyberspace about everything and anything.

In message , at 14:02:41 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:
The agent at the airport in the case of Stansted Express is StEx
itself - they've a counter after customs for arrivals.

StEx is just a brand of Abellio GA. Are you sure this is an AGA sales
office, and not some sort of travel agent?

Almost certain, yes.

See:
https://www.stanstedexpress.com/about-us/latest-news/2013/01/25/buy-stansted-express-tickets-at-the-airport

There's nothing in that announcement which persuades me it's an
AGA-staffed operation.

Well, if you want to be pedantic (and, come on, you love it!), I
didn't say anything about it being "AGA-staffed"!

So what are you claiming then - that it's an AGA "owned" booth with
airport-handling-agency staff inside?

I'll turn that around and ask 'what are you claiming'?

I'm claiming I can't see any evidence it's anything other than a travel
agency franchise.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 14:05:40 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:

It would be interesting to know what it is about the cards which stops
them working. A lot of people probably think "contactless" is some sort
of 'standard', but clearly it isn't.

EMV contactless is a standard. But come on, you know about standards...

There doesn't seem to be nearly as much of an interoperability issue
with the magstripes on cards, or the C&P (where they have one).
--
Roland Perry

On 31/03/2015 11:42, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 11:23:13 on Tue, 31
Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked:
[1] Hidden rather a long way down the list of what does and doesn't
work, they suddenly introduce the concept of 'pre-pay' cards.

Pre-paid cards

If you have a prepaid card (issued in the UK or outside the UK), it
may be accepted for travel on our services. Contact your card issuer
for more information

And I should have added that this aspect is much more important for
tourists, because they are aggressively marketed pre-paid cards by
various Bureau-de-Change as a means of delivering "foreign" (to them)
currency such as pounds.

It would be a great disappointment if perhaps the first time they wanted
to use such a card on arrival in the UK (to travel on TfL) that it
didn't work.

This, and other, newsgroups commonly have people moaning about the lack
of acceptance of UK cards by Dutch TVMs, for example.

I don't think pre-paid cards issued for the travel market feature
contactless (those issued either here or abroad). Bear in mind the
revenue risk for an issuer.

But by all means show me whatever examples there are out there. (I have
looked and not found any - and remember the 'pre-paid card issue' is a
significant part of your argument as per above.)

In message , at 14:11:14 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:

Given the back office processing, issues such as the OSI max journey
time-out that you could encounter with Oyster (where processing happens
'on the card') don't crop up, at least AFAIAA (I haven't tried testing
it to destruction yet).

Isn't part of the max-journey-time and max-OSI-time to do with revenue
prevention (not just fraud, but also making sure that a round trip gets
counted as two fares and not one).
--
Roland Perry

On 30/03/2015 23:43, Richard wrote:

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:02:45 +0100, Mizter T
wrote:

What's the situation re RER stations run by RATP (so in the centre), as
opposed to SNCF run ones - are there still ticket windows? My guess is
that there probably are, but it's a guess.

I can't remember... I think I saw one at Etoile. Wikipedia still
claims they have ticket offices. But it can be hard to tell, as the
staff still have the office to sit in and dispense advice rather than
tickets. They'll come out of the office if necessary, I've always
found them very helpful.

I've found the SNCF Transilien ticket counters at termini stations
useful places to buy a carnet - they happily take notes too!

Yes, and useful that many people don't realise that the Transilien
machines can also sell them and head off for the heaving metro station
instead. Useful in a city where after spending millions on a
smartcard, a 7-day ticket still has to start on a Monday!

Agreed, I always suggest people head for the Transilien machines - most
just head for the Metro ones (just like in London I suggest that, if
folk have an Oyster they wish to top-up, they should head for an NR
machine rather than a Tube one at a London termini).

Worth noting we do now have a slight mirror of the (nee Carte Orange,
now Navigo) weekly ticket situation - contactless weekly capping runs on
a Monday to Sunday window (not sure that doing it in any other way would
be sensible though - K.I.S.S. and all that).


Card acceptance in France pre-EMV chip standardisation was definitely
hit and miss - learnt the hard way by almost running out of petrol late
at night, card not accepted at at least two unmanned filling stations,
so we had to wait and strike a deal with a friendly local when they
eventually arrived to fill up themselves - lesson learnt!

I've had a few moments like that... with the male urge to see if empty
really does mean empty, and the last last last petrol station only
taking cards.

To bring things back on topic, I ran out of petrol in an operating
London bus lane once. Embarrassing. Thankfully it was the middle of the
day and I didn't end up causing some massive traffic jam. Got a letter
with nice colour video still and a demand for money a week or so later
from a London borough. (FWIW, twas a friend's car - he casually told me
that the fuel gauge was a "tad inaccurate" - alas that wasn't an
entirely fair representation of the actualité!)

The nearest petrol station that I headed to on foot with my can had, of
course, recently closed and become a hand car wash...

On 31/03/2015 14:15, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:05:40 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:

It would be interesting to know what it is about the cards which stops
them working. A lot of people probably think "contactless" is some sort
of 'standard', but clearly it isn't.

EMV contactless is a standard. But come on, you know about standards...

There doesn't seem to be nearly as much of an interoperability issue
with the magstripes on cards, or the C&P (where they have one).

My limited understanding is that there have been different generations
of issues of contactless cards - in the future, as old cards expire and
new cards issued to the latest specifications, then most if not all EMV
contactless cards should work for 'transit applications' such as that of
TfL.

(I think I recall reading about the possibility of a small writeable
space on contactless cards of the future too, one that could be used by
transit applications.)

On 31/03/2015 14:19, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:11:14 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:

Given the back office processing, issues such as the OSI max journey
time-out that you could encounter with Oyster (where processing
happens 'on the card') don't crop up, at least AFAIAA (I haven't tried
testing it to destruction yet).

Isn't part of the max-journey-time and max-OSI-time to do with revenue
prevention (not just fraud, but also making sure that a round trip gets
counted as two fares and not one).

Yes, but if you're making a longer journey, or two separate journeys
(the distinction being in the eye of the passenger) - then if your break
outside a paid zone (for instance outside the barriers at a London
termini, between an NR and Tube journey) is short enough to qualify as
an OSI (the time allowance can be quite generous), and the total journey
time from point A to point C (point B being where the OSI occurs) busts
the specified max journey time (which depends on number of zones passed
through, time of day and day of week), then with Oyster you can end up
with a max fare for an unfinished journey (the one that timed out en
route to point C) and a max fare for exiting at point C without having
touched-in - at least that's how the Oyster card and validators
interpret it.

What I'm suggesting is that the back office logic that processes
contactless fares should work it all out and either break them into two
separately charged fares, or else charge it as one fare (I don't know
which it does, I shall endeavour to experiment and find out).

On 2015-03-31 10:44:56 +0000, Roland Perry said:

What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary
Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless
card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate?

With monthly capping (and perhaps a move to longer-term capping), who
needs a Travelcard?

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.