In article
-september
..org, (Recliner) wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message

-septembe
r.org, at 08:27:22 on Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Recliner
remarked:
Further into the future, if a third runway is built, there will be
a new western terminal, which may be adjacent to T5, and share its
three underground stations.

There are only two. Recent poorly-written articles about a "secret
station" are in fact about extra as-yet-unused platforms at the
heavy rail station.

When it eventually opens, who knows whether it will be shown as a new
GWR station or a pair of extra platforms at what is currently the HEx
station? The GWR station may be gated, the HEx station isn't, as it's
free to the central station.

It's inevitable that it'll be just one station because there will be
through trains (I don't think it's yet been decided if HEx or
Crossrail would run the 2tph Paddington-Heathrow-Reading trains; very
unlikely to be FGW or successor).

Through trains will presumably use the current HEx platform pair. The
currently unused platform pair could be used for a different service,
perhaps to Staines and beyond.

You can't have terminating and reversing trains using the same
platform as though trains because the through trains will be right
behind a terminating one and therefore considerably delayed.

Why not? There could be a reversing siding to the east of the platforms.
If you've never seen such a thing before, I suggest you look at Rayner's
Lane, where there's a reversing siding fir Piccadilly Lone trains just
behind the platforms used by Picc and Met line trains.

It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article
-september
.org, (Recliner) wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message

-septembe
r.org, at 08:27:22 on Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Recliner
remarked:
Further into the future, if a third runway is built, there will be
a new western terminal, which may be adjacent to T5, and share its
three underground stations.

There are only two. Recent poorly-written articles about a "secret
station" are in fact about extra as-yet-unused platforms at the
heavy rail station.

When it eventually opens, who knows whether it will be shown as a new
GWR station or a pair of extra platforms at what is currently the HEx
station? The GWR station may be gated, the HEx station isn't, as it's
free to the central station.

It's inevitable that it'll be just one station because there will be
through trains (I don't think it's yet been decided if HEx or
Crossrail would run the 2tph Paddington-Heathrow-Reading trains; very
unlikely to be FGW or successor).

Through trains will presumably use the current HEx platform pair. The
currently unused platform pair could be used for a different service,
perhaps to Staines and beyond.

You can't have terminating and reversing trains using the same
platform as though trains because the through trains will be right
behind a terminating one and therefore considerably delayed.

Why not? There could be a reversing siding to the east of the platforms.
If you've never seen such a thing before, I suggest you look at Rayner's
Lane, where there's a reversing siding fir Piccadilly Lone trains just
behind the platforms used by Picc and Met line trains.

It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

About 3-4 mins in the peaks, much, much less than the 15 mins at HEx T5.

Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, Recliner writes

You can't have terminating and reversing trains using the same
platform as though trains because the through trains will be right
behind a terminating one and therefore considerably delayed.

Why not? There could be a reversing siding to the east of the platforms.
If you've never seen such a thing before, I suggest you look at Rayner's
Lane, where there's a reversing siding fir Piccadilly Lone trains just
behind the platforms used by Picc and Met line trains.

It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

About 3-4 mins in the peaks, much, much less than the 15 mins at HEx T5.

Rubbish - RLN reversers are not less than 10 minutes apart. The other
ones go to UXB; and a few (not many now) to RUI in the peaks.

You're violently disagreeing with something that wasn't said!

Nobody said they were all reversers. That's the interval of all the trains
at the station. As you say, the reversers are about every 10-20 mins (ie,
about half the Picc trains; the more frequent Met trains all run through).

Contrast that to a future through HEx station at T5. The reversers would be
every 30 mins, as would the through trains. Even allowing for slower
alighting of airport trains and longer trains, it should be more than ample
time. Also, the T5 station isn't a junction, which makes it simpler.

On 2016\05\02 01:00, Recliner wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, Recliner writes

You can't have terminating and reversing trains using the same
platform as though trains because the through trains will be right
behind a terminating one and therefore considerably delayed.

Why not? There could be a reversing siding to the east of the platforms.
If you've never seen such a thing before, I suggest you look at Rayner's
Lane, where there's a reversing siding fir Piccadilly Lone trains just
behind the platforms used by Picc and Met line trains.

It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

About 3-4 mins in the peaks, much, much less than the 15 mins at HEx T5.

Rubbish - RLN reversers are not less than 10 minutes apart. The other
ones go to UXB; and a few (not many now) to RUI in the peaks.

You're violently disagreeing with something that wasn't said!

Nobody said they were all reversers. That's the interval of all the trains
at the station. As you say, the reversers are about every 10-20 mins (ie,
about half the Picc trains; the more frequent Met trains all run through).

Contrast that to a future through HEx station at T5. The reversers would be
every 30 mins, as would the through trains. Even allowing for slower
alighting of airport trains and longer trains, it should be more than ample
time. Also, the T5 station isn't a junction, which makes it simpler.


The (Merseyrail) Northern Line trains from Ormskirk and Kirkby terminate
in the through platforms at Central which are also used by trains from
Southport to Hunts Cross and vice versa. Both terminators run every 15
minutes and the through trains run every 15 minutes each way.

Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\05\02 01:00, Recliner wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, Recliner writes

You can't have terminating and reversing trains using the same
platform as though trains because the through trains will be right
behind a terminating one and therefore considerably delayed.

Why not? There could be a reversing siding to the east of the platforms.
If you've never seen such a thing before, I suggest you look at Rayner's
Lane, where there's a reversing siding fir Piccadilly Lone trains just
behind the platforms used by Picc and Met line trains.

It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

About 3-4 mins in the peaks, much, much less than the 15 mins at HEx T5.

Rubbish - RLN reversers are not less than 10 minutes apart. The other
ones go to UXB; and a few (not many now) to RUI in the peaks.

You're violently disagreeing with something that wasn't said!

Nobody said they were all reversers. That's the interval of all the trains
at the station. As you say, the reversers are about every 10-20 mins (ie,
about half the Picc trains; the more frequent Met trains all run through).

Contrast that to a future through HEx station at T5. The reversers would be
every 30 mins, as would the through trains. Even allowing for slower
alighting of airport trains and longer trains, it should be more than ample
time. Also, the T5 station isn't a junction, which makes it simpler.


The (Merseyrail) Northern Line trains from Ormskirk and Kirkby terminate
in the through platforms at Central which are also used by trains from
Southport to Hunts Cross and vice versa. Both terminators run every 15
minutes and the through trains run every 15 minutes each way.

So, in a 15 minute interval, there will be one through train and one
terminator; the T5 station will have half that, with either one terminator,
or one through train, every 15 mins.

By contrast, I just looked at the Rayner's Lane departure board, and in the
next 15 minutes there will be six through trains (five Met, one Picc) and
two terminators. And that's on a Bank holiday.

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 00:00:01 on Mon, 2 May 2016, Recliner
remarked:
It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

About 3-4 mins in the peaks, much, much less than the 15 mins at HEx T5.

Rubbish - RLN reversers are not less than 10 minutes apart. The other
ones go to UXB; and a few (not many now) to RUI in the peaks.

You're violently disagreeing with something that wasn't said!

Nobody said they were all reversers. That's the interval of all the trains
at the station. As you say, the reversers are about every 10-20 mins (ie,
about half the Picc trains; the more frequent Met trains all run through).

Contrast that to a future through HEx station at T5. The reversers would be
every 30 mins, as would the through trains. Even allowing for slower
alighting of airport trains and longer trains, it should be more than ample
time. Also, the T5 station isn't a junction, which makes it simpler.

I would expect it to be unlikely that T5 station would still have only
4tph when through-running began. And that's without a link to the SWT
network. Network Rail is claimed to be proposing four through trains an
hour (two to Oxford and one each further afield possibly Basingstoke and
Soton), on top of the terminators.

If the third runway is built, aiui there will be a shuttle train from
the current T5 stations, rather than extend either the tube or heavy
rail. That'll mean a more frequent service will be required.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-sept
ember.org, at 00:00:01 on Mon, 2 May 2016, Recliner
remarked:
It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

About 3-4 mins in the peaks, much, much less than the 15 mins at HEx T5.

Rubbish - RLN reversers are not less than 10 minutes apart. The other
ones go to UXB; and a few (not many now) to RUI in the peaks.

You're violently disagreeing with something that wasn't said!

Nobody said they were all reversers. That's the interval of all the trains
at the station. As you say, the reversers are about every 10-20 mins (ie,
about half the Picc trains; the more frequent Met trains all run through).

Contrast that to a future through HEx station at T5. The reversers would be
every 30 mins, as would the through trains. Even allowing for slower
alighting of airport trains and longer trains, it should be more than ample
time. Also, the T5 station isn't a junction, which makes it simpler.

I would expect it to be unlikely that T5 station would still have only
4tph when through-running began. And that's without a link to the SWT
network. Network Rail is claimed to be proposing four through trains an
hour (two to Oxford and one each further afield possibly Basingstoke and
Soton), on top of the terminators.

A useful (IEP, at least 3 tph) link to the SWT network would need the
currently unused platforms. But 4 or even 6 tph through/terminating trains
could easily use the current HEx platforms.


If the third runway is built, aiui there will be a shuttle train from
the current T5 stations, rather than extend either the tube or heavy
rail. That'll mean a more frequent service will be required.

Is that confirmed or speculation? It does make sense for there to be an
inter-terminal shuttle service linking not just the new terminal and T5
(which will be fairly close together), but also the central terminal(s) and
T4 as well. Moving between T4 and T5 currently requires one to take a
direct external bus or do two hops on the trains.

On 2016\05\02 09:27, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\05\02 01:00, Recliner wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, Recliner writes

You can't have terminating and reversing trains using the same
platform as though trains because the through trains will be right
behind a terminating one and therefore considerably delayed.

Why not? There could be a reversing siding to the east of the platforms.
If you've never seen such a thing before, I suggest you look at Rayner's
Lane, where there's a reversing siding fir Piccadilly Lone trains just
behind the platforms used by Picc and Met line trains.

It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

About 3-4 mins in the peaks, much, much less than the 15 mins at HEx T5.

Rubbish - RLN reversers are not less than 10 minutes apart. The other
ones go to UXB; and a few (not many now) to RUI in the peaks.

You're violently disagreeing with something that wasn't said!

Nobody said they were all reversers. That's the interval of all the trains
at the station. As you say, the reversers are about every 10-20 mins (ie,
about half the Picc trains; the more frequent Met trains all run through).

Contrast that to a future through HEx station at T5. The reversers would be
every 30 mins, as would the through trains. Even allowing for slower
alighting of airport trains and longer trains, it should be more than ample
time. Also, the T5 station isn't a junction, which makes it simpler.


The (Merseyrail) Northern Line trains from Ormskirk and Kirkby terminate
in the through platforms at Central which are also used by trains from
Southport to Hunts Cross and vice versa. Both terminators run every 15
minutes and the through trains run every 15 minutes each way.

So, in a 15 minute interval, there will be one through train and one
terminator;

.... on each of the two Northern Line platforms

By contrast, I just looked at the Rayner's Lane departure board, and in the
next 15 minutes there will be six through trains (five Met, one Picc) and
two terminators.

.... with a siding that Liverpool Central doesn't have. My point was that
Liverpool Central seems to cope with a more intensive service than is
proposed for T5, without any siding.

Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\05\02 09:27, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2016\05\02 01:00, Recliner wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, Recliner writes

You can't have terminating and reversing trains using the same
platform as though trains because the through trains will be right
behind a terminating one and therefore considerably delayed.

Why not? There could be a reversing siding to the east of the platforms.
If you've never seen such a thing before, I suggest you look at Rayner's
Lane, where there's a reversing siding fir Piccadilly Lone trains just
behind the platforms used by Picc and Met line trains.

It takes too long to clear a terminating train and move it to the siding if
there's another train right behind. That's why most stations where that
happens have extra platforms. What's the interval between trains at Rayner's
Lane?

About 3-4 mins in the peaks, much, much less than the 15 mins at HEx T5.

Rubbish - RLN reversers are not less than 10 minutes apart. The other
ones go to UXB; and a few (not many now) to RUI in the peaks.

You're violently disagreeing with something that wasn't said!

Nobody said they were all reversers. That's the interval of all the trains
at the station. As you say, the reversers are about every 10-20 mins (ie,
about half the Picc trains; the more frequent Met trains all run through).

Contrast that to a future through HEx station at T5. The reversers would be
every 30 mins, as would the through trains. Even allowing for slower
alighting of airport trains and longer trains, it should be more than ample
time. Also, the T5 station isn't a junction, which makes it simpler.


The (Merseyrail) Northern Line trains from Ormskirk and Kirkby terminate
in the through platforms at Central which are also used by trains from
Southport to Hunts Cross and vice versa. Both terminators run every 15
minutes and the through trains run every 15 minutes each way.

So, in a 15 minute interval, there will be one through train and one
terminator;

... on each of the two Northern Line platforms

Yes, the same as at Rayner's Lane, but with its much more intensive
service.

How long are the Merseyrail trains? The reversing Piccadilly line trains
have six carriages. They each have to be checked and the doors closed
manually before the train goes off to the siding.


By contrast, I just looked at the Rayner's Lane departure board, and in the
next 15 minutes there will be six through trains (five Met, one Picc) and
two terminators.

... with a siding that Liverpool Central doesn't have. My point was that
Liverpool Central seems to cope with a more intensive service than is
proposed for T5, without any siding.

Yes, agreed. The T5 mix of two terminators and two through trains per hour
(or even a slightly higher frequency) should be very easily handled on a
pair of platforms plus a reversing siding.

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 09:19:09 on Mon, 2 May 2016, Recliner
remarked:

If the third runway is built, aiui there will be a shuttle train from
the current T5 stations, rather than extend either the tube or heavy
rail. That'll mean a more frequent service will be required.

Is that confirmed or speculation?

From a usually reliable source, if the project goes ahead.
--
Roland Perry