On 04.07.17 18:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx
and not on Crossrail?

I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the
default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course,
delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which
will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying
for.

There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause
confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster
weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on
Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong
machine.

I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on
HEx.



Every HEx I've travelled on has had a ticket check on the train (there
being none at Padd). The fares difference could be enforced there.

Oyster allows charging of a special, non-zonal fare for certain things.
Notably river services, at present, but also the danglebahn.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

When are they going to extend Oyster/Contactless to Brighton and to Bedford?

On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 22:39:23 +0100, "
wrote:

On 04.07.17 18:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge” of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx
and not on Crossrail?

I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the
default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course,
delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which
will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying
for.

There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause
confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster
weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on
Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong
machine.

I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on
HEx.



Every HEx I've travelled on has had a ticket check on the train (there
being none at Padd). The fares difference could be enforced there.

Oyster allows charging of a special, non-zonal fare for certain things.
Notably river services, at present, but also the danglebahn.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

When are they going to extend Oyster/Contactless to Brighton and to Bedford?

When Sadiq Khan annexes Sussex and Bedfordshire ?

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

wrote:
On 04.07.17 18:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx
and not on Crossrail?

I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the
default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course,
delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which
will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying
for.

There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause
confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster
weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on
Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong
machine.

I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on
HEx.



Every HEx I've travelled on has had a ticket check on the train (there
being none at Padd). The fares difference could be enforced there.

Oyster allows charging of a special, non-zonal fare for certain things.
Notably river services, at present, but also the danglebahn.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

When are they going to extend Oyster/Contactless to Brighton and to Bedford?

Dunno about Bedford, but I gather Oyster may be extended to Luton Parkway,
just as it has to Gatwick.

In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote:

tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim...
wrote:

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...eathrow-jwrcct
t60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8ef44

Extracts:

The airport_s owners - a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds - want to recoup its past spending on the private train line
with an "investment recovery charge" of £570 for every train that
uses the track, plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no
justification for such a historic charge, and fear it could mean
higher ticket prices. The Department for Transport reckons the extra
charges would cost Crossrail £42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow challenged the watchdog_s decision to reject the charges.
Under contingency plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail
trains could terminate a few miles short of the airport, with
passengers forced to transfer onto other trains at a suburban
station. The trains would then head back to central London, dodging
the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:

https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...row-terminal-5
-boosted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for
Transport have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail
connectivity to the airport, including the addition of two new
per Elizabeth Line trains hour serving Terminal 5 from December
2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow,
meaning passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between
Paddington and Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or
a contactless device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I meant:

how is the Oyster machine going to differentiate when you tap on it
(at LHR)?

If the 'correction' is applied on the HEx train, then the 'touch in'
device doesn't necessarily need to know.

Presumably paper tickets will still be valid?

I was reading it as separate Oyster/Contactless touch in for HEx. How I
wasn't sure though presumably those at Paddington will be HEx-only.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote:

tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim...
wrote:

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...eathrow-jwrcct
t60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8ef44

Extracts:

The airport_s owners - a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds - want to recoup its past spending on the private train line
with an "investment recovery charge" of ï½£570 for every train that
uses the track, plus extra fees of about ï½£107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no
justification for such a historic charge, and fear it could mean
higher ticket prices. The Department for Transport reckons the extra
charges would cost Crossrail ï½£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow challenged the watchdog_s decision to reject the charges.
Under contingency plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail
trains could terminate a few miles short of the airport, with
passengers forced to transfer onto other trains at a suburban
station. The trains would then head back to central London, dodging
the ï½£700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:

https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...row-terminal-5
-boosted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for
Transport have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail
connectivity to the airport, including the addition of two new
per Elizabeth Line trains hour serving Terminal 5 from December
2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow,
meaning passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between
Paddington and Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or
a contactless device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I meant:

how is the Oyster machine going to differentiate when you tap on it
(at LHR)?

If the 'correction' is applied on the HEx train, then the 'touch in'
device doesn't necessarily need to know.

Presumably paper tickets will still be valid?

I was reading it as separate Oyster/Contactless touch in for HEx. How I
wasn't sure though presumably those at Paddington will be HEx-only.

At Paddington, yes, but not at Heathrow.

At Heathrow, there will still be the issue that the train service will be
free between the three Heathrow stations, so they won't be able to have a
gate line to enter the platforms. They can have Oyster touch pads like the
DLR, but it'll be tricky explaining to foreign tourists and occasional
users when they should touch in and out, and when not to.

Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does
touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later at
a different, or even the same, Heathrow station.

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
wrote:
In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote:

tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim...
wrote:

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...eathrow-jwrcct
t60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8ef44

Extracts:

The airport_s owners - a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds - want to recoup its past spending on the private train line
with an "investment recovery charge" of ï½£570 for every train that
uses the track, plus extra fees of about ï½£107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no
justification for such a historic charge, and fear it could mean
higher ticket prices. The Department for Transport reckons the
extra
charges would cost Crossrail ï½£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow challenged the watchdog_s decision to reject the charges.
Under contingency plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail
trains could terminate a few miles short of the airport, with
passengers forced to transfer onto other trains at a suburban
station. The trains would then head back to central London, dodging
the ï½£700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:

https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...row-terminal-5
-boosted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for
Transport have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail
connectivity to the airport, including the addition of two new
per Elizabeth Line trains hour serving Terminal 5 from December
2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow,
meaning passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between
Paddington and Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or
a contactless device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I meant:

how is the Oyster machine going to differentiate when you tap on it
(at LHR)?

If the 'correction' is applied on the HEx train, then the 'touch in'
device doesn't necessarily need to know.

Presumably paper tickets will still be valid?

I was reading it as separate Oyster/Contactless touch in for HEx. How I
wasn't sure though presumably those at Paddington will be HEx-only.

At Paddington, yes, but not at Heathrow.

At Heathrow, there will still be the issue that the train service will be
free between the three Heathrow stations, so they won't be able to have a
gate line to enter the platforms. They can have Oyster touch pads like the
DLR, but it'll be tricky explaining to foreign tourists and occasional
users when they should touch in and out, and when not to.

Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does
touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later
at
a different, or even the same, Heathrow station.

though the problem is going to be people not touching out

many "foreigners" used to an honesty system of fare paying are not used to
having to touch out as well as in

tim

In article ,
Recliner wrote:
Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does
touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later at
a different, or even the same, Heathrow station.

The tube does that now, but I agree that gating the HeX and Connect will make life
for casual users far more exciting.

Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed
to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most
people changing terminals would use the airside buses.

Heathrow Express uses dedicated platforms at Paddington, just like Gatwick Express does at Victoria, so the same mechanism could be used for charging a premium fare. Also, as Heathrow Express usually checks 100% of tickets during the journey, the handheld Oyster reader that they will presumably be issued with could trigger a "surcharge".

"John Levine" wrote in message
news
In article
,
Recliner wrote:
Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does
touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later
at
a different, or even the same, Heathrow station.

The tube does that now, but I agree that gating the HeX and Connect will
make life
for casual users far more exciting.

Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed
to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most
people changing terminals would use the airside buses.

I once had to use it when traffic congestion caused the airlink bus to dump
everyone at T5 and not carry forward to T123.

In fact, as that bus no longer serves T4, if that is your required terminal
you have to use HEx to make that journey every time

tim

In article ,
tim... wrote:
Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed
to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most
people changing terminals would use the airside buses.

I once had to use it when traffic congestion caused the airlink bus to dump
everyone at T5 and not carry forward to T123.

In fact, as that bus no longer serves T4, if that is your required terminal
you have to use HEx to make that journey every time

Well, you could use the 482 or 490 bus or the tube, but I take your point.

R's,
John